JJ Hardy optioned to AAA- Latest: Per McCalvy, JJ will be left at AAA and add another year before free agency

[Fatter than Joey]

Agreed. That's weak.

 

Yeah -- If I were Macha -- I wouldn't play him when he got recalled.

 

I am beginning to wonder if they asked JJ to move over to 3rd, (perhaps because they were DFAing Hall), to make room for Escobar, and he told them to pound sand, and then they sent JJ to AAA.

[brewizard]

I think Hardy's slump and the organization's year-long indifference to him go hand in hand. Hardy was, arguably, the best player Milwaukee had down the stretch last year. He hit consistently during the late swoon and rocky playoff run. Hardy had played well for two years in a row when the team essentially left him in no-man's-land starting with this season. Without any pitching for a playoff run, the club should have traded either Hardy or Escobar last season and committed to the future at SS one way or the other.

 

I think Melvin's 'wait-and-see' approach to this has been disastrous for the Brewers and for Hardy. Now, we're about to see how bad Escobar's bat really is, and that could be disastrous to next season's ticket sales.

[panthernick]

Actually I was thinking these are the words of a man who knows he is about to be traded or has been traded......

[Brewer Fever]

Actually I was thinking these are the words of a man who knows he is about to be traded or has been traded......

I think they're the words of a man who knows he's got a nice 3 day rest ahead of him. And the assurance that he'll be back up when rosters expand thereby maintaing his status as a free agent after 2010. People are reading way too much into this, imo.

[Fatter than Joey]

Why send him to AAA to get him 3 day's rest? -- Why not DL him or just start Counsell.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Except it did happen. Escobar's OPS this year is just 762, down from 797 last year. The jump from AAA to MLB is much bigger than the jump from AA to AAA.

35 OPS points lower is a freefall? That's what, 4-5 walks and three doubles difference in about 400 AB's? I understand it's different levels, but I also consider MLE's to be a joke, especially when you're trying to project a guy who's been young at every level of competition he's played in. His OBP is .350 in AAA - to me that's respectable for a guy in that league for the first time...not elite, but not horrible, either.

Again, why not wait until he makes the expected improvement

Because the Brewers can't wait another season to allocate a higher % of their payroll on pitching when Fielder and others' time is limited in Milwaukee. If they wait another year to call up Escobar and have Hardy and Hart making about 10 million together, where's the $ going to come from to improve the pitching staff?

Escobar doesn't have near the power Hardy has, but he's regarded as a superior defensive talent (no knock on J.J.'s defense, Escobar simply has better defensive tools), and he's a superior athlete that can impact the game with his speed. In a perfect world Escobar would get another minor league season to improve offensively, but IMO the Brewers don't have the time left in their window to let another season go by with Fielder and Braun having to play with a terrible pitching staff - SS was one of the few positions the Brewers had a reasonable replacement for a guy that's getting expensive who could be part of a trade to acquire pitching.

We're not talking about Escobar having to replace Braun's offensive contribution - and in all honesty, this move makes sense for the Brewers only if both Hardy AND Kendall are not Brewers next year - Escobar would be an improvement over Kendall offensively, and hopefully a different catcher can put up a similar or better line offensively to what Hardy has done this season. Depending on who that catcher is you'd have two positions filled by cheaper players who at worst would put up the same #'s from 2008.

[jjkoestler]

Yes, it's bad business not doing this one day sooner, but I don't think the Brewers want the bad reputation that comes with robbing players of a service year.

 

While I agree with this sentiment, JJ Hardy has robbed fans of a certain amount of enjoyment this year. I would not feel bad for him in this case, especially since he continues to tie the organizations hands by killing his trade value through stinky play.

 

Baseball is a business, and its very hard to feel bad for a person who is that handsome, talented, and rich. I think the Brewers need to do what is in the organization's best interest regarding keeping Hardy in AAA beyond September 1. If keeping him in AAA until September 2 makes Hardy a more appealing player to another club, then by all means do so.

[logan82]

he's a superior athlete that can impact the game with his speed.

 

Only if he gets on base.

[bjkrautk]

I think three days off would have been all I needed, and I've been going out there every single day and doing what they've asked me to do."

 

Hardy conceded that he never approached manager Ken Macha and asked for a break.

 

"Who am I to tell Macha what the lineup should be and who should be playing?" Hardy said.

J.J. Hardy Pre-All Star Game: .680 OPS

Post ASG: .611 OPS

 

....I don't think J.J. has isolated the root cause, here.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Only if he gets on base.

sorry, forgot to account for all the unwanted baseclogging of Hardy and Kendall's .300 and .315 OBP's respectively.

[Brewer Fever]

Why send him to AAA to get him 3 day's rest? -- Why not DL him or just start Counsell.

To send a message. And more importantly, to hopefully get him jump-started against lesser competition. It worked for Rickie Weeks. It doesn't hurt to see what you have with Escobar either. For the next 20 days, it's Escobar spot.

[sheethead]

Yes, it's bad business not doing this one day sooner, but I don't think the Brewers want the bad reputation that comes with robbing players of a service year.

 

While I agree with this sentiment, JJ Hardy has robbed fans of a certain amount of enjoyment this year. I would not feel bad for him in this case, especially since he continues to tie the organizations hands by killing his trade value through stinky play.

It really has nothing to do with Hardy. It has all to do with they way your organization is perceived. If the Brewers had made this move yesterday to push back Hardy's FA by one year, the black mark it would have given them with agents and players would probably prove more costly than any gain made by putting off JJ's free agency.

Agents smagents. The Twins suppressed Liriano last year and caught some heat, but I doubt it will hurt their cause. Small market teams can get away with this, because they aren't signing the big name free agents anyway.

[Brewer Fever]

Baseball is a business, and its very hard to feel bad for a person who is that handsome, talented, and rich. I think the Brewers need to do what is in the organization's best interest regarding keeping Hardy in AAA beyond September 1. If keeping him in AAA until September 2 makes Hardy a more appealing player to another club, then by all means do so.

No way do the Brewers want that reputation with other players and agents. THAT would be bad business.

[shelmark]

X,

 

Can you tell me the OPS of Ozzie Smith for his career without looking it up? Do you think he should be in the Hall of Fame? In using your numbers as you like to do would Ozzie have any value in the majors for his leadership, steals, defensive prowess? I'm just curious about your opinion on this because you are very adament that Escobar will fail to help us. I don't know if he will or won't, but it seems you have the games played already. By the way, Ozzie's career OPS has three 6's in it. You can put them in any order you want.

[Brewer Fever]

Yes, it's bad business not doing this one day sooner, but I don't think the Brewers want the bad reputation that comes with robbing players of a service year.

 

While I agree with this sentiment, JJ Hardy has robbed fans of a certain amount of enjoyment this year. I would not feel bad for him in this case, especially since he continues to tie the organizations hands by killing his trade value through stinky play.

It really has nothing to do with Hardy. It has all to do with they way your organization is perceived. If the Brewers had made this move yesterday to push back Hardy's FA by one year, the black mark it would have given them with agents and players would probably prove more costly than any gain made by putting off JJ's free agency.

Agents smagents. The Twins suppressed Liriano last year and caught some heat, but I doubt it will hurt their cause. Small market teams can get away with this, because they aren't signing the big name free agents anyway.

How about a HS player in the draft? Do the Brewers really need to give the player and their agent any more ammunition along with a threat to go to college. And how about a major league FA who is 50/50 on signing with the Brewers or another team. You don't think other players and agents will be in his ear about how the Brewers waited 1 extra day to recall JJ Hardy just so he would lose a year of service time? Liriano is nowhere near a parallel example.

[sheethead]

I got Ozzie's career OPS at .665 from my iphone app. Good point shelmark.

[kramnoj]

Bringing up Ozzie Smith actually reinforces X's point. Ozzie was at his peak offesively between ages 29 and 34, and was a poor offensive player from ages 24-28. He was probably close to average offensively for his position during that time. Also, service time means a lot more these days then it did 20+ years ago.

[brewcrew7]

X,

 

Can you tell me the OPS of Ozzie Smith for his career without looking it up? Do you think he should be in the Hall of Fame? In using your numbers as you like to do would Ozzie have any value in the majors for his leadership, steals, defensive prowess? I'm just curious about your opinion on this because you are very adament that Escobar will fail to help us. I don't know if he will or won't, but it seems you have the games played already. By the way, Ozzie's career OPS has three 6's in it. You can put them in any order you want.

You have to remember that you deal with people who are alot more casual of fan and that can cause them to make opinions that will stick with them for a long period of time. That is why you have some who ripped Prince last year and any other player who does poorly for a stretch. In this situation there are still a large group who will love JJ to the death. I know a bunch of them and they still thought he was just amazing. It all depends on what colored glasses you wear. I look at each player as an individual and dont really have a favorite brewer.

 

But I love your example as he is definately a guy who never really did anything amazing at the plate. I like Escobar for his speed and defense alone. And for those who say if he ever gets on base. It doesnt take a many hits to hit like Hardy has and he should be a great baserunner. Not sure how that alone should be good enough to give him a go here. Can't wait to see him.

[sheethead]

How about a HS player in the draft? Do the Brewers really need to give the player and their agent any more ammunition along with a threat to go to college. And how about a major league FA who is 50/50 on signing with the Brewers or another team. You don't think other players and agents will be in his ear about how the Brewers waited 1 extra day to recall JJ Hardy just so he would lose a year of service time? Liriano is nowhere near a parallel example.

 

I am just not buying the organizations obligation to ensure Hardy becomes a free agent as soon as possible. He earned the demotion. Two good years is nice, but if he wants his 5 years of service time he needs to earn it. That is the message agents should be sending their high schoolers. The 50/50 free agent scenario is just as invalid as the Liriano example then, as that player's contract will be guaranteed regardless of what the club decides to do with him.

[shelmark]

I think X had some excellent points, but I think the OPS overall is overrated for the shortstop position and I am curious as to whether or not X thinks Escobar's defense and speed could offset the OPS. Even Jose Reyes only has a career OPS of .772, but he is a pain in the rear and is a real fireplug kind of player. I am not attacking X at all, but I think his argument about waiting is not valid as he will be the starter next year so this is good experience for him. Ozzie was a lousy hitter his first 4 years(and pretty much his whole career), but he was stealing bases like a madman and I think he could pick it pretty good.

[Brewer Fever]

Liriano had a major injury and wasn't on the cusp of achieving 5 years service time. Completely different. It's a ridiculous comparison. Keeping Hardy in the minors to strip away a year of service time obviously does no good for Hardy. So be it. Who cares about the rich baseball player, right? But more importantly the 1 additional year of JJ Hardy does less good than the harm caused to the organizations reputation among players and agents. You have to accept that. If you can't then you just won't be able to understand why Melvin is not going to do that to a player.

[fondybrewfan]

Here is my 2 cents on the whole Escobar ordeal.

 

Yeah he only has a .750ish OPS in AAA but with the amount of singles he turns into doubles or even triples via the stolen base his actual OPS is probably in excess of .800. If he ever develops power than get the hell out of the guys way.

 

I mean really what is the difference between Hardy hitting a double and Escobar singling and stealing 2nd? According to OPS Hardy is the better player but they both ended up in the same spot. Yeah Escobar will get thrown out some but I would be willing to bet that Escobar will single and steal a heck of a lot more than Hardy will double.

 

Not to mention Escobar scoring more easily from 2nd on a single or 1st on a double, not to mention the superior range that Escobar has compared to Hardy.

 

Escobar is ready.

[kramnoj]

If you can't then you just won't be able to understand why Melvin is not going to do that to a player.

 

Why would this affect the opinion of a FA? Teams delay callups to get the extra year and try to avoid super 2, and agents haven't done anything about that.

 

This is a fairly unique situation. It's not often that a player that is rated as a Type A player is performing as badly as Hardy has this season. If this was being done for the sole purpose of getting an extra year, outrage would be coming. But this demotion has been earned.

[Brewer Fever]

If you can't then you just won't be able to understand why Melvin is not going to do that to a player.

 

Why would this affect the opinion of a FA? Teams delay callups to get the extra year and try to avoid super 2, and agents haven't done anything about that.

That's at the beginning of a players career. That's done to a rookie who is about to replace a veteran. This is a 5 year veteran on the cusp of free agency. If people would just stop for a moment to think about these things it might aid in having a clearer perspective.

[kramnoj]

If people would just stop for a moment to think about these things it might aid in having a clearer perspective.

 

This is unbelievably condescending, considering you didn't even take the time to answer the actual question. Why would a FA care about how a team handles service time issues?