JJ Hardy optioned to AAA- Latest: Per McCalvy, JJ will be left at AAA and add another year before free agency

[Fatter than Joey]

exactly... After one year he still is a type A.

[Hate those Rodents]

Quick question - A few posters on the mlbtraderumors Hardy thread are saying this is brilliant sending Hardy down because it will delay his free agency until AFTER 2011! Is there anything to this or any way this would be possible? Thanks in advance...

[TheCrew07]

Lots of players put up good OPS without hitting homers, but Escobar simply doesn't put up a good OPS. He carries limited value until then. Why call him up until he's better than Adam Everett?If you really believe he won't hit until he's 27, why do you laud him as a good prospect? I think he's a good prospect, but the results show he's not ready.

I don't see any reason why Escobar couldn't approach 2.5-3 WAR next season, I'd take that. This move doesn't really effect his service time in any meaningful way, where's the downside as far as Escobar is concerned? He was probably coming up again in 2 weeks anyway, what's 2 weeks?

 

My point is your use of the word "hit', he's clearly talented enough to hit MLB pitching today. I agree that he doesn't walk as much as I'd like or hit for enough power to be elite, but claiming he doesn't hit is disingenuous, it's a distortion of the truth. He's not Tulo, but he's not Everett either, his physical gifts far exceed Everett.

[Oldcity]

My thinking is they're figuring Hardy's trade value really can't get any worse. If they can buy another year before he becomes a free agent, that gives him another year to revive some trade value. If he doesn't hit again, at this point what have you really lost? If this truly adds a year of service time, this is the one move made today I can get on board with.

[jackalope02ca]

I'm not sure why anyone thinks this hurts Hardy's trade value? A guy hitting in the .220's doesn't have much to begin with regardless of his defensive skills. If he goes down and works hard for the rest of the month at AAA he might be able to create some trade value for the winter if he comes back in September and performs. Why would anyone thinks he's going to suddenly come out of a year long hitting skid in mid August if we leave him in the majors?

[Never Outhustled]

This move doesn't really effect his service time in any meaningful way, where's the downside as far as Escobar is concerned? He was probably coming up again in 2 weeks anyway, what's 2 weeks?

 

It wastes an entire year of service time if they make him the starting SS, because he stay there to open next season, he belongs in AAA to open next season.

 

 

My point is your use of the word "hit', he's clearly talented enough to hit MLB pitching today.

So he's talented enough to hit MLB pitching, but he can't hit AAA pitching? Is he just chooing to put up an unispiring 762 OPS in AAA? Everyone keeps calling him a 300 hitter, but he isn't doing that either. I'm not the 1 being disingenuous, I'm using simple, easy to read facts.

 

 

Some were disappointed with Mat Gamel, and his OPS was 171 points higher when he was called up.

[Diskono]

And Hardy was benched his first season for not hitting....

True, but I don't think anybody expected Hardy to be quite *that* bad. I don't think Escobar will be that bad either, but you never know.

[Fatter than Joey]

If they can buy another year before he becomes a free agent, that gives him another year to revive some trade value.

 

So, you would start him ahead of Escobar for sure? What if Escobar takes off? I am not sure keeping Hardy around for another season is the best idea.

 

If he doesn't hit again, at this point what have you really lost?

 

If he is starting, you are losing baseball games, or at least some sort of opportunity to win them.

 

If this truly adds a year of service time, this is the one move made today I can get on board with.

 

It may be making the best out of a bad situation -- I can certainly see that.

[Ennder]

To be fair I'm not overly worried about Hardy stinking again next year. He is hitting just like normal vs RHP and having an absolutely miserable year vs LHP. Usually that isn't something that is sustained. My guess is either his back has been bothering him all year(since his power is gone) or that his new stance is messing him up which is something that seems fixable.

 

His two good seasons didn't have any fluke indicators that suggest they aren't repeatable by him in the future like say Hall or Hart's big years did.

[endaround]

Escobar's MLEs are that bad. Escobar's MLEs are 0.259 0.301 0.345 which are below Hardy's numbers for this year and far below his rookie season.

[jjfanec]

It wastes an entire year of service time if they make him the starting SS, because he stay there to open next season, he belongs in AAA to open next season.

You may have wanted Escobar to stay in AAA next year but from everything reported by analysts, scouts, etc, Escobar was going to be the starting SS next year for the Brewers. Hardy was already in trade rumors last off-season so Escobar could come in and start. No one made staying in the minors next year seem like an option so they were not as worried about you about his OPS. Guys like Hanley Ramirez and Elvis Andrus did not put up great numbers in the minors but had success early on in the majors so why cant Escobar do the same.

[Never Outhustled]

Escobar's MLEs are that bad. Escobar's MLEs are 0.259 0.301 0.345 which are below Hardy's numbers for this year and far below his rookie season.

I don't have anything to add, but I just wanted to bold Escobar MLEs, so Brewerfans aren't surprised when he shows he not ready to hit yet.

[sheethead]

exactly... After one year he still is a type A.

 

But he stunk this year. So if he stinks next year it won't matter if he is allowed to stink that extra year.

[Diskono]

I don't think too many people were disappointed with Hardy's rookie season after his second-half hot streak - I was mostly referring to his .187/.293/.267 first half, which caused him to get benched. I'm fairly certain Escobar can do better than that right now.

 

Escobar's MLEs are that bad. Escobar's MLEs are 0.259 0.301 0.345 which are below Hardy's numbers for this year and far below his rookie season.

I don't have anything to add, but I just wanted to bold Escobar MLEs, so Brewerfans aren't surprised when he shows he not ready to hit yet.

I think that line is acceptable for a top-5 defensive shortstop. Not saying Escobar definitely is that, but there is more to baseball than hitting.

[Never Outhustled]

Guys like Hanley Ramirez and Elvis Andrus did not put up great numbers in the minors but had success early on in the majors so why cant Escobar do the same.

 

Andrus has a 684 OPS in a hitters paradise. Thats terrible. He belongs in AAA competing against Escobar.

[Never Outhustled]

I think that line is acceptable for a top-5 defensive shortstop. Not saying Escobar definitely is that, but there is more to baseball than hitting.

Even with great defense, it would make him less valuable than Counsel playing SS over the next few weeks.

[sheethead]

Escobar's MLEs are that bad. Escobar's MLEs are 0.259 0.301 0.345 which are below Hardy's numbers for this year and far below his rookie season.

I don't have anything to add, but I just wanted to bold Escobar MLEs, so Brewerfans aren't surprised when he shows he not ready to hit yet.

Come on, those projections are about as useful as a fantasy football cheat sheet. A few might be right, but many are not. I wouldn't use them as an argument against this move, but rather as a barometer of what we might come to expect. The Brewers don't have the luxury to keep Escobar at AAA until he is OPSing his mind off. Deal.

[brosto1]

Come on, those projections are about as useful as a fantasy football cheat sheet.

While I do like to use those projections, I also agree with this statement especially with younger players. Excellent comparison!

[Diskono]

Even with great defense, it would make him less valuable than Counsel playing SS over the next few weeks.

I agree, but the real question is - do we care about then next few weeks? Are we still trying to make the playoffs, or are we looking ahead to next year?

[TheCrew07]

MLEs.... hollow, empty, meaningless argument. He was coming up in 2 weeks anyway, Hardy had no long term future. A deal was never discussed from either camp, Hardy should have been moved last off season when he value was at it's peak, and I'll believe that to my grave. What do Escobar MLEs have to do with next season? What does an arbitrary average reduction in AAA stats mean for this season? Andrus isn't hitting that bad and Escobar was considered superior with the bat. None one is saying he's going to hit to an .800 OPS, but I think Andrus' .685 for the rest of this season isn't all that far off for Escobar's line for the rest of the season, and he'll easily hit above .700 next season if he's the opening day SS.

 

My primary concern here is the pitching and will remain so, swapping Escobar for Hardy in the short term or the long term is immaterial, it was inevitable. It makes no difference to me when it's done now that Melvin missed Hardy's peak value on the trade market, and I'm a huge Hardy supporter and always have been. I find it odd that I'm continually defending Escobar when he's not even one of my guys.

[endaround]

The point X is making is that the Brewers are adding 2 months to Escobar's service time for no real reason.

[TheCrew07]

The point X is making is that the Brewers are adding 2 months to Escobar's service time for no real reason.

I got that. If he's the opening day SS in 2010, or 2011, 2 extra weeks of service time either way doesn't cost us a full season service, it doesn't even impact super 2 status. The Escobar side of this debate is way off the mark, he was coming up on Sept 1 regardless, 2 weeks is an insignificant amount of time.

[jjfanec]

On a side note it will be really interesting to see if JJ is in the lineup tonight for Nashville. They play a late game tonight, he will have plenty of time to get there but I have to assume he will not be playing tonight. The Sounds have a day off tomorrow so Hardy would not play until Friday but my gut tells me there is a chance he is moved by then.

[bcf5575]

i think that escobar is exactly the kind of offensive player that the brewers have been lacking. a guy who is most concerned about getting on base and causing havoc with his speed. look at how much nyjer morgan was a pain in the butt for the brewers in that nationals series a few weeks back.

 

we have enough guys that are supposed to hit 20+ hr - lets get someone in the lineup that can actually get on base so they are not all solo shots!

[sheethead]

The good news for Hardy is that he will find a whole new crop of hotties down in Nashville. Hope he brought all his Remetees with him. I see some longs nights in Nashville on the horizon for the All-Star.