JJ Hardy optioned to AAA- Latest: Per McCalvy, JJ will be left at AAA and add another year before free agency

[nate82]

All I will say is that Escobar better be in the lineup every day. I agree that Salome for Kendall is the next logical move in this progression.

 

Regarding J.J. Hardy, I have to believe that "he gone" within the next day or two. I'm not sure the rule for waiver trades, but there is no way that he went through waivers without being closed, therefore the trade must be to whomever claimed him correct?

Hardy wasn't passed through waivers though. Melvin never put Hardy through waivers yet that maybe coming soon though.

[Fatter than Joey]

I'm not sure the rule for waiver trades, but there is no way that he went through waivers without being closed, therefore the trade must be to whomever claimed him correct?

 

Correct.

 

Because both are premium defensive players

 

Yet he got sent down to AAA.

 

I understand that some team will take a flyer on JJ, assuming he is "likely to hit again" -- however, we are more than likely to get a "likely to pitch again" guy -- not rotation help.

[yoyo49]

This is what I was referring to:

 

Outright assignments

A player assigned outright to the minor leagues for the first time in his career must accept the assignment. Thereafter, a player has the choice of 1) rejecting the assignment and becoming a free agent immediately, or 2) accepting the assignment and become a free agent at the end of the season if he has not been returned to the 40-man roster.

 

A player with 3 years of Major League service may refuse an outright assignment and choose to become a free agent immediately or at the end of the season.

 

A player with 5 years of Major League service who refuses an outright assignment is entitled to the money due according to the terms of his contract.

 

 

 

I understand how the options/free agency work, but was asking on this case specifically. JJ is a player with 3 years of major league service time.

[sheethead]

I would put money on him hitting better than Hardy has hit this year.

 

I am not picking on you ----

 

but how can we expect Escobar to outhit JJ on one hand, and then on the other hand pretend that JJ has any real trade value (i.e., to net us pitching).

I stopped pretending Hardy has any real trade value once the non-waiver trade deadline passed. If Melvin can tack on another year of service time, that was the best way for the Brewers to increase his offseason value. Hardy wasn't doing them any favors, so Melvin is doing what's best for the team. I like it, and I like it a lot.

[Never Outhustled]

I don't think it's fair to continually twist his results in this manner, I have a hard time getting onboard with this notion that 15+ HR power is necessary to be called up. What if player like Escobar doesn't reach that point till his 27 year peak season? Do you keep him in the minors until then?

Lots of players put up good OPS without hitting homers, but Escobar simply doesn't put up a good OPS. He carries limited value until then. Why call him up until he's better than Adam Everett?If you really believe he won't hit until he's 27, why do you laud him as a good prospect? I think he's a good prospect, but the results show he's not ready.

[sargennm]

I understand that some team will take a flyer on JJ, assuming he is "likely to hit again" -- however, we are more than likely to get a "likely to pitch again" guy -- not rotation help.

I mostly agree with you on this, but you never no what some desperate GM will give the Brewers simply because they are getting an "All-Star" SS. This is also my hope with "All-Star" Corey Hart.

[sheethead]

I understand how the options/free agency work, but was asking on this case specifically. JJ is a player with 3 years of major league service time.

 

Again, Hardy had options left. So these rules do not apply.

[Diskono]

I understand how the options/free agency work, but was asking on this case specifically. JJ is a player with 3 years of major league service time.

The difference is just that he's not being outrighted - I guess technically he could be, but since he has options, the Brewers don't need to DFA and outright him in order to send him down.

[Fatter than Joey]

I understand how the options/free agency work, but was asking on this case specifically. JJ is a player with 3 years of major league service time.

 

JJ didn't get outrighted though -- he got "optioned". The 3 year mark has nothing to do with anything.

 

If JJ had 5+ years of service time he could have refused the option.

 

If Melvin can tack on another year of service time, that was the best way for the Brewers to increase his offseason value. Hardy wasn't doing them any favors, so Melvin is doing what's best for the team. I like it, and I like it a lot.

 

Again, if Hardy spends the rest of 09 in AAA, why would teams care he has an extra year of control.

[sheethead]

I think he's a good prospect, but the results show he's not ready.

 

There aren't any results to go by other than his 2-4, 2R from 2008. That would be a 1.000 OPS in the bigs! Why be a downer?

[sheethead]

Again, if Hardy spends the rest of 09 in AAA, why would teams care he has an extra year of control.

 

I see your point about AAA, but he had success for 2 years at the major league level and not so much this year. I think having the extra year of team control increases his value more than if he stayed with the big club and continued his pace the rest of the season. Melvin took matters into his own hands instead of hoping JJ gets hot to increase his value.

[Diskono]

I mostly agree with you on this, but you never no what some desperate GM will give the Brewers simply because they are getting an "All-Star" SS. This is also my hope with "All-Star" Corey Hart.

I wonder what All-Star 2B Junior Spivey is up to...

 

this reminds me of one of my favorite Ben Sheets quotes, I think after Corey Hart won the final vote thingy: "Once you're an All-Star, you're always an All-Star. Even if you suck every year."

[Fear The Chorizo]

I guess I still don't understand the blanket assumption that Escobar is going to be a terrible offensive player. He's hitting .300 with a .350 OBP in his 1st year at AAA as a 22-year old - wasn't the preseason expectation that he was unfortunately going to stink on ice against AAA pitching and show how much more seasoning he would need in order to stay above the mendoza line in the majors? The OPS isn't there due to a lack of slugging, and while I don't see him ever morphing into Braun, I'm fine with that because his offensive game should be centered on getting on base - tough to slug an incredible amount when a bunt basehit is a major part of his approach.

 

To me it seems like the assumed statistical freefall he didn't have between AA and AAA is being pushed up another level. I'm not saying Escobar will set the world on fire, but I'll continue to be willing to give him time to continue to develop, grow into his frame, and improve...something prospects are supposed to do. If the Brewers are going to improve their pitching staff, they need to free up money from other positions in order to do so - exactly the reason why this type of move makes sense, whether it be to trade Hardy before this season ends, or to extend his service time to make him a more valuable trade commodity in the offseason. Either way, Hardy's not going to be on the 2010 Brewers, so why not let Escobar get some everyday SS experience in the majors? I don't feel bad for Hardy at all - if he'd be producing like the top 5 shortstop a majority of people on this site think he is, this would have never happened.

[The Truth]

Beyond one of the (good) questions as to whether Macha will let Escobar play every day (he should, perhaps sitting him occasionally vs the toughest right handers so Counsell can play), is whether Macha will actually let him run and steal bases.

 

I think it is reasonable to assume that one of the messages being made today is that Macha is on the hot seat

[Ennder]

Jack Wilson had trade value and Hardy is as good or better defensively and a better hitter than him. He still has some trade value.

 

I highly doubt Escobar plays full time. A lot of teams like to break in young players in part time roles and that seems to be the way Macha likes to do it too.

[The Truth]

Also, with a base stealer like Escobar, a guy who can easily score from first on any double and who can go to from first to third on many singles, I will be looking at OBP as a much more telling value of Escobar's worth than OPS

[TauPentaRei]

I bet Escobar proves to be as valuable as half of Roy Halladay,

 

presuming the package Melvin wouldn't deal was Gamel & Escobar + flotsam & jetsam.

[Diskono]

Of course Macha will start Escobar, why would he want to "waste" Counsell's amazing bench bat on a measly starting position?

Just like Hardy in his rookie season, Escobar is here for his defense first. If he can hit at anything close to an average level, he's immediately a good player/contributor. I still think Hardy is the better player right now, but I love Escobar's potential, both offensively and defensively. I look forward to watching him play.

[endaround]

And Hardy was benched his first season for not hitting....

[Fatter than Joey]

Jack Wilson had trade value and Hardy is as good or better defensively and a better hitter than him.

 

More correctly put Jack Wilson+Ian Snell had trade value -- and that package did not net MLB pitching.

 

He still has some trade value.

 

I don't think anyone questions this -- the debate is more centered around "does this move help or hurt it"

[CheezWizHed]

Again, if Hardy spends the rest of 09 in AAA, why would teams care he has an extra year of control.

Maybe I missed a point in skipping pages 3 and 4 of this thread. But wouldn't he be more valuable to a team if traded in the offseason with 2 years of control instead of a one year rental?

 

I'm really expecting a trade out of this, mainly because Melvin said he didnt'... http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I'd expect Escobar to put up similar offensive numbers to Elvis Andrus of the Rangers while playing at the same calibur of defense as well. Escobar could also steal 15+ bases in the remaining part of the season because of his speed. Andrus is 1.9 wins above replacement this year. Hardy has a 1.5 WAR. Escobar could provide more value from this point forward than Hardy would.

[Fatter than Joey]

But wouldn't he be more valuable to a team if traded in the offseason with 2 years of control instead of a one year rental?

 

Certainly in most cases....

 

My question was though, if you send a guy to AAA, does a team really care to have that second year. Frankly, if I were looking from the outside, I'd almost rather have the one year and then picks, rather than worrying he is going to stink for 2 years.

[Never Outhustled]

To me it seems like the assumed statistical freefall he didn't have between AA and AAA is being pushed up another level.

Except it did happen. Escobar's OPS this year is just 762, down from 797 last year. The jump from AAA to MLB is much bigger than the jump from AA to AAA.

 

 

The OPS isn't there due to a lack of slugging, and while I don't see him ever morphing into Braun, I'm fine with that because his offensive game should be centered on getting on base - tough to slug an incredible amount when a bunt basehit is a major part of his approach.

Yeah, too bad he's not good at that either. A 353 OBA in AAA doesn't translate well to the Majors. He'll be a 320-330 OBA guy for awhile, with no power. We already know how that handcuffs the lineup.

 

Again, why not wait until he makes the expected improvement?

[sheethead]

If he stinks for two years in a row, he would likely not be a Type A free agent.