JJ Hardy optioned to AAA- Latest: Per McCalvy, JJ will be left at AAA and add another year before free agency

[endaround]

No Escobar wouldn't be better then Hardy defensively.

 

Thank you for the insight but I'll go by the people in baseball including Melvin who has said Escobar is a once in generation type of defensive shortstop and the plethora of scouts, including Jack Z., who say he is top notch over your personal opinions if you don't mind. I might even take my own sight over yours if that's all right with you.

 

And I'll take that a rookie player isn't going to suddenly be much better than the top palyers defensively at his position.

[sheethead]

And I'll take that a rookie player isn't going to suddenly be much better than the top palyers defensively at his position.

 

Why not? Is it not possible?

[sheethead]

If you want to talk about a strawman argument, howsabout the idea that anybody stated that WAR was the "end all be all" of anything? I don't think anybody other than its detractors described it in any such fashion anywhere in this thread.

Using simple WAR Hardy was worth 6.5M so far this season because of his defense. He was worth 22.2M last year.

 

Someone mentioned this to argue against another's statement that Hardy was not living up to his paycheck this year. That's what started the whole off-topic extravaganza, although very unintentionally.

[Thurston Fluff]

And I'll take that a rookie player isn't going to suddenly be much better than the top palyers defensively at his position.

 

Suddenly? He's been touted as a defensively ready for the major leagues great shortstop for a couple years now. The question was never his defense it was always whether he could hit at the major league level. Hardy is a very good shortstop but he was never considered special defensively. The word special has been used to describe Escobar by pretty much every one who has seen him play.

[CheezWizHed]

Seems like in ST, people were saying Escobar was better than Hardy defensively....

 

BTW, what is the record number of posts for a topic that didn't include Branyon?

[sheethead]

BTW, what is the record number of posts for a topic that didn't include Branyon?

 

Well, it WAS 578! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Thurston Fluff]

I think it is so long because it hits a core difference in how fans view players and teams. Someone astutely pointed out this is bit like the Favre debate. Some people are fans follow a team but identify more with the players on the team than the team itself, some find the players more or less interchangeable but follow the team. I tend to follow the team or, to be more accurate, the process of building/maintaining a team. Hardy was a popular player here even before he was in the majors. Many fans identify with him and wanted him specifically to be part of the team for as long as possible. I tend to want him around only until he can be replaced by someone better or as good but cheaper. It's really a matter of what aspect of the game one is most interested in. If you are interested in a personal connection to a specific player you would probably be very agnry with how he is being treated. If interest is more team based then I think one would find the team's handling of him more favorably.

 

I don't want to come off like those who follow specific players are wrong or not as interested in the team's fortunes just that we all have our own aspect of the team we enjoy following.

[endaround]

And I'll take that a rookie player isn't going to suddenly be much better than the top palyers defensively at his position.

 

Suddenly? He's been touted as a defensively ready for the major leagues great shortstop for a couple years now. The question was never his defense it was always whether he could hit at the major league level. Hardy is a very good shortstop but he was never considered special defensively. The word special has been used to describe Escobar by pretty much every one who has seen him play.

 

That's just wrong. Hardy was always considered a gem defensively. Again to pretend the Escobar is suddenly going to be greater then the top palyers at the position just isn't smart. He's been crap so far in the major leagues and that's likely mostly due to nerves but he dug himself a hole in the month of playing time.

[Thurston Fluff]

That's just wrong. Hardy was always considered a gem defensively. Again to pretend the Escobar is suddenly going to be greater then the top palyers at the position just isn't smart.

 

Yup you is rite I am not smart. I cold not hold a kandle to yu in the smarts deprtment. I gess eveyody who seems to tink he is beter, includin the GM ar dum two. I guess Hardy is stil a top palyer and shoud be giving the jub indefinatly. Those of us who don't agree wit yu are all jus pretnding. Dat is why he was demoted in favore or Escobar.

[mletto157]

Ouch, I smell a thread lock coming if this keeps up...

[logan82]

I think Escobar can be a better defender that Hardy some day, but right now he isn't. Scouts always seem to talk about potential.

 

The expectations for Escobar's hitting MLB are equal to Hardy's very bad year at the plate.

[Invader3K]

Escobar has "been crap?" Really? I would disagree. "Small sample" and all that.

[endaround]

He's committed 3 errors. Now maybe his range will compensate for that over time, but 3 errors give you -1.3 runs in value its hard to overcome that.

[Teatoe993]

I'm pretty sure that JJ is plenty capable of having three errors in the same time period. And I am not saying that he's bad at fielding at all. JJ is really good at SS. Escobar just seems better with more range. Add to the fact that he's capable of matching if not beating JJ's 2009 numbers with the bat, can actually run faster than Prince Fielder, and makes 4 million less; I can't see how we can go back to JJ.

[jhart05]

I don't know, sounds like he just made one of those spectacular plays we've been told he's been making in the Minors for quite some time.

 

I believe everyone, even the players, were talking about the plays Escobar was making in spring training.

 

 

I don't really know why there is still discussion about this anyway. Escobar is cheaper and one of the top prospects in all of the minors. We're not talking about the Yankees, Angels, Cubs, or Red Sox, who can pay players whatever they want. Those teams would have the choice to shop both players around and take the best deal. This is the Brewers. They have to go with the cheaper option in Escobar, and hope they can get a solid #3 starter for Hardy.

[sheethead]

Again to pretend the Escobar is suddenly going to be greater then the top palyers at the position just isn't smart.

 

So in order to be smart, we should assume Escobar will not be better than Hardy defensively? Not only is Escobar already better than Hardy defensively, he will become better than him offensively as well. Time will tell who the smart one is, but in the meantime you can be smarter with the huge sample size UZR on Escobar.

 

Also, two of the errors charged to Escobar were done so because they had to be charged to someone, and were not the result of sloppy play on his part.

[dadofandrew]

I only remember one E on Alcides, and it was when the throw was bad from the P, and he could not squeeze it.

[cwolf2012]

"he will become better than him offensively as well"

 

I definitely don't agree with this. JJ has about twice the power capability of Escobar. Just because he was bad this season does not make him a bad hitter. If Escobar could take walks, he would be a much better hitter. If he can get his OBP into the .350+ range, then we can start talking about him being as good a hitter as Hardy, but right now he hasn't shown himself as much more than a Juan Pierre type hitter. As I look at Escobar as a hitter, I think we should be happy if we ever get more than about a .100-.120 ISO out of him. Thankfully, he's a high BA type hitter, so we could see something like a .300/.360/.400 line out of him in a year or two, which would be plenty adequate for a SS of his defensive caliber.

 

When it comes to defense, Escobar has certainly shown that he has the tools to be amazing. UZR doesn't like him right now (EXTREMELY SMALL SAMPLE SIZE ALERT!), but I fully expect him to turn it around and be about as good or better than Hardy in the field.

[sheethead]

JJ has about twice the power capability of Escobar.

 

And Bill Hall had twice the power capability of Hardy. Just because Hardy hit 26 HRs two years ago doesn't mean he will do it again. The jury still has to be out on Hardy, as two good seasons does not make a player... just ask Bill Hall. Wait don't ask him, he will not be frank.

[cwolf2012]

"And Bill Hall had twice the power capability of Hardy. Just because Hardy hit 26 HRs two years ago doesn't mean he will do it again."

 

I understand your point, but there certainly is a discrepancy between Hall and Hardy. Hardy at least had success in the minors when hitting. Hall was awful in the minors. The same could be said about any player in the league, if you're going to take that approach. Just because Braun hit 37 homeruns last year doesn't mean he'll do it again.

 

But I do understand your point. I was just making note of the irrelevance of that statement as an argument. Every argument around "just because it happened once, it won't necessarily happen again" doesn't really hold water. We know that Hardy can hit the ball better than he has this year, and he absolutely has 20+ HR talent. He showed that he could hit for power in the minors as well. Escobar has never hit for power in his short career in the minors or in the MLB. It's just not his style. If he's going to be good at hitting, he needs to take walks and bat .300.

 

Prince could get away with batting .270 because he has a great eye and phenomonal power. The same principle applies to Hardy, just at a much lower scale.

[sgtcluels]

You are comparing Apples to Oranges. When Hardy first came up, at the age of 22, he hit what 9 home runs in in 372 ABs. It's not like he was hitting the ball out of the park on a regular basis. Escobar is a lanky kid still, he will build muscle and develop more power. Remember, he'll also lose some speed as well as lose some range from it. So do we want a base stealing super SS or a SS with power who will lose some range?

 

Hardy would still be starting if we wouldn't have drafted Escobar, no one is saying he's a crap shortstop it's just that we have a crazy defensive kid who we can control for cheaper, longer and should develop with the bat as time goes on. You saying JJ will rebound has the same weight as I'm saying Escobar will improve. Who knows, maybe Escobar will stink or Hardy will never be able to see the ball well again. We need to roll'dem'bones and I'd hitch my wagon to Escobar.

[Invader3K]

Hardy would still be starting if we wouldn't have drafted Escobar

 

Not to nit pick, but Escobar was signed as an amateur free agent when he was about 16 in Venezuela.

 

I still feel strongly, more and more, that the team has to build around these cheap young guys if we have any hope of trading for or signing decent starting pitching. We need salary room to do that, and trading guys like Hardy who are making several million next year just makes too much sense. Yes, it would be nice if we were like Boston or New York and could keep both somehow, but we can't realistically do that.

 

Escobar is going to be very good, in my opinion, based on what I've seen so far. He's young and he's going to make mistakes...people soon forget how many errors Rickie Weeks had in his rookie season, or how bad Hardy's bat was his first year. Escobar will go through some growing pains, but he should continue to develop as long as Macha actually plays him on a regular basis.

[sheethead]

Every argument around "just because it happened once, it won't necessarily happen again" doesn't really hold water.

 

That is a valid point, if conversely you concede the argument that, "Hardy has hit before, therefore he WILL hit again one day." You can't have your cake and eat it too when architecting arguments. While past performances are great gauges as to what a player is capable of, it has absolutely no bearing on what the player will do in the future. On top of that, JJ did NOT hit for much power in the minors, not that his minor league stats when compared to Bill Hall's stats are relevant when discussing their big league careers.

 

Just because he was bad this season does not make him a bad hitter.

 

All I know is it makes him a bad hitter for this season. Hardy has been a bad hitter at other times in his career as well, so it wasn't just this season.

[sgtcluels]

Not to nit pick, but Escobar was signed as an amateur free agent when he was about 16 in Venezuela.

My mistake. But that's what I meant http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[TheCrew07]

Escobar is a lanky kid still, he will build muscle and develop more power. Remember, he'll also lose some speed as well as lose some range from it. So do we want a base stealing super SS or a SS with power who will lose some range?

That's not really the way it works... he'll lose some speed and quickness eventually with age, but it doesn't have to be because he was bulking up, otherwise you'd have no 4.3, 4.2 40 time players in the NFL, sprinters wouldn't lift weights, etc.. If he trains correctly, adding muscle throughout his frame he'd be okay. Hardy didn't get slower because he lifted weights, he got slower because of that horrible ankle injury at that plate.

 

I'm not going to sit here and say that Escobar will one day hit 20 HRs, I have no idea what his work ethic or career goals are. I will say though that he has a realistic chance of reaching the 20 HR plateau if he were to train properly in the off seasons instead of playing winter ball. That's what makes him so exciting as a prospect for me personally, he still has the potential to be so much better than he is.