JJ Hardy optioned to AAA- Latest: Per McCalvy, JJ will be left at AAA and add another year before free agency

[The Truth]

whine whine pout pout. JJ Hardy is the slowest SS in baseball, he chases down fly balls like a 41 year old utility guy, and he's hitting .239

 

He can turn on a fastball though and has proven MLB success, plus he is a very solid fielder despite his limited range, so he certainly has trade value

[gobrew23]

Wow, is someone on this forum related to JJ or something?

 

I just don't get how people can feel sorry for JJ. He didn't perform near the level that he is capable of and there was an elite prospect ready to take the step up. It's not like JJ will never get paid his millions. He's already made millions and will continue to in the future, whether it is with the Brewers or another team.

[silversurferr]

Hey The Truth: That is exactly the truth.

[paul253]

Hardy isn't exactly tearing it up down in Nashville either. He needs to stop complaining and start performing. Had he even had an average year he wouldn't even be in this position. It's just kind of bad luck that the Brewers had a major league ready prospect available to replace him. I'm sure Hardy hasn't thought about the fact that he has hurt the Brewers through the lowering of his trade value as much as they have hurt him. Maybe if they felt they could still get fair value for him they wouldn't have needed to gain an extra year of him.

[RightFieldCoder]

"If the Brewers want to use [Escobar], I feel like I'll still be playing shortstop somewhere," Hardy said. "Just not with Milwaukee. There's nothing I can do about it, so it's one of those things I don't worry about." - 03/08/09

So stop worring about it. They went with Escobar. Hardy flat out said he wanted to play SS for another team. This will make him easier to trade to another team. Hardy wouldn't do what's best for the team and switch positions, he did what's best for him. Well, the team stopped doing what's best for Hardy (giving him service time before he was ready) and started doing what's best for the team.

[dogs with bees in their mo]

JJ seems to have developed quite a sense of entitlement. I guess that's the risk you run when you hand over a position to a guy before he earns it. His attitude makes me think giving him a dose of humility might have factored into the demotion in the first place.

 

I don't know if Melvin screwed with his service time on purpose or not, but I don't care. We don't need to spend a lot of effort to make sure somebody who is under-performing and replaceable doesn't get his feelings hurt. If Melvin was trying to stick it to him, that's fine with me. It might have given him more trade value, which is probably what Melvin wants to do with him. However, Melvin is still not forced to do anything. That's the way it is when you control somebody's rights. If JJ doesn't like that he can cry to the union.

[craigharmann]

JJ seems to have developed quite a sense of entitlement.

That's what has been going through my head. I'm not sure of what his situation was growing up, but I wonder how much he's really had to work for things, and how much he's been able to go on natural ability. Some guys would take stuff like this personally, and then turn around and take it out of the baseball. Kind of a wake-up call. It seems to me that JJ has a very fragile ego, and doesn't really seem all that mentally tough to me.

[The Truth]

As you might have guessed I'm not much of a Hardy fan, but he's had to work hard to get where he is like most MLB players, and he has had to endure some grueling rehabs from injuries. Those pro trainers really work players bigtime.

 

I always have wondered whether JJ's big half-season and All-Star game appearance stunted his growth a little mentally. He certainly had a bit of a "deer in the headlights" look in that All-Star game. I'll give him credit for hitting well in the playoffs last year. Few Brewers hit much at all in that series.

 

It seems as though MLB pitchers have adjusted bigtime to JJ, knowing he's going to kill most fastballs thrown for strikes. They seem to be throwing him fastballs out of the zone and lots of curve-ball and slider/change-up junk, and (like Hall and for the most part Hart) JJ hasn't adjusted back...

[The Truth]

Meant to add:

 

The bottom line is, Hardy is making 2.6 million dollars this season. In this economy, he's not going to get much sympathy from most fans.

[clancyphile]

Have to disagree to an extent. I'd say that Doug Melvin and Ken Macha handled the whole Escobar/Hardy matter only somewhat better than Josh McDaniels handled Jay Cutler in Denver.

 

You have a shortstop who, after 2007 and 2008 had 50 HR, 150 RBI, and an OPS of .803 (http://www.baseball-refer...08-sum:batting_standard) while providing very solid defense. No A-Rod, but easily in the top five shortstops in the majors. Talk about a "not broken" situation, this is a classic case (much as having Jay Cutler at QB was for the Broncos).

 

They should have told him this could affect his service time. Now, a fair bit of trust has gone out the window - and it won't come back 100%. So, now the Crew seems to be facing one of two options: If Hardy gets his swing fixed, and takes the job next spring, then he may very well walk as a FA, and we don't know how long comp picks will be around.

 

I'm all for dropping Macha after this year. The Brewers did not have these kinds of breakdowns when Ned Yost was in at manager.

[jeffy]

Meant to add:

 

The bottom line is, Hardy is making 2.6 million dollars this season. In this economy, he's not going to get much sympathy from most fans.

That was last year, this year he is making 4.6 million.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

MJLiverock wrote:

Apparently Orlando Cabrera fluctates from being the best defensive shortstop to the one of the worst defensive shortstops fairly often. I just can't buy into a metric that has something like defensive ability fluctating that much year to year.

If you account the discrepancy in the number of opportunities, this reasoning would also forbid you from ever looking at batting average.

[SeriesFinale]

I always have wondered whether JJ's big half-season and All-Star game appearance stunted his growth a little mentally. He certainly had a bit of a "deer in the headlights" look in that All-Star game.

I know this thread is a dogpile, but come on...he took a key 9th inning 2-out walk in his only at-bat.

 

Personally, yeah, JJ has stunk up the joint this season, but if the point was to improve what has ailed Hardy, then leave him down there until September 7th when the Sounds' season ends. Like dlk9s said, it's not like he's earned his way back. Bringing him back right after the 20 days does reek of them working the system (which isn't against the rules, of course) to make him more tradeable, and I don't blame Hardy for getting a little chapped by that. It's not about "feelings," it's basically gonna end up costing him a big chunk of change.

 

Now we're in a situation where Escobar is back to having to split time he could use to develop, JJ is back to splitting time (and at the MLB) level he could use to improve, and I believe the Brewers' organization is going to get a bit of a black eye among players. If they sent him down to improve, leave him down there.

[MJLiverock]

MJLiverock wrote:

Apparently Orlando Cabrera fluctates from being the best defensive shortstop to the one of the worst defensive shortstops fairly often. I just can't buy into a metric that has something like defensive ability fluctating that much year to year.

If you account the discrepancy in the number of opportunities, this reasoning would also forbid you from ever looking at batting average.

 

Cabrera's oppourtunities have been fairly consistent during the timeframe as have his innings played and have varied nowhere near as wildly as the UZR rating or UZR/150 rating.

 

For full years (not including this year with makes the data look even more unpredictive since his UZR is -15.3 so far) his average innings is 1339 with a standard deviation of about 50 innings, his 1 standard deviation from normal results in only a 4% swing in innings

 

Putouts during the 02-08 frame averaged 241 with a standard deviation of 12 resulting in only a 5% deviation from the mean while being with that 1st sd.

 

Assists averaged 429 with a s.d. of 53, so here he shows a little variance from the mean getting all the way up to 12% swings.

 

UZR rating during this time averaged 6.4, one standard deviation was 8.2. He could swing 127% in one direction from his mean and still be within one standard deviation.

 

Even is the UZR/150 is utilized, which attempts to equalize the games at 150 the swings in his defensive rating get even more profound, mostly due to my now being able to include this year but even without it the swings are still greater. The average rating goes to 4.4 while the standard deviation jumps to 11.1 or a 252% swing from the mean and still being within a standard deviation.

 

Given there is really very minor moves in innings, putouts, assists and UZR is all over the place from year to year and I don't have time to run a regression but I am guessing that UZR fluctuation isn't driven by the number of chances.

 

 

 

 

[SeriesFinale]

And where can I find said "pouty Nashville Sounds" picture?

It was on the Sounds website...I posted it earlier in the thread although it might be down now.

 

Edit: Here it is:

 

http://www.nashvillesounds.com/images/players/hardy.jpg

 

And I can't believe it's actually influencing people's views on the situation; I just thought it was funny. It's just a picture, not necessarily a Rorshach Test.

 

I mean, look at this pouty crybaby Robert Hinton:

 

http://www.nashvillesounds.com/images/players/hinton.jpg

 

Or whiny jerk Joe Koshansky:

 

http://www.nashvillesounds.com/images/players/koshansky.jpg

 

Look at this sighing entitled baby! Lip up, Mat!

 

http://www.nashvillesounds.com/images/players/gamel.jpg

 

If these whiny, pouty, entitled children were so great, they wouldn't be in AAA ball with their whiny baby frowns!!! Stop yer cryin', Nashville Sounds, or Brewerfan will give you something to cry about!

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

I don't have a problem with anything that JJ said or how he feels. It's completely understandable.

 

I also understand what the Brewers are doing. They are trying to maximize the value of JJ so they can get some pitching. I can't disagree with that either, but they should expect a bit of a backlash.

 

I will be very bummed if JJ gets booed on his return. He doesn't deserve it IMO.

[PeaveyFury]

They should have told him this could affect his service time.

 

His agent should have informed him of that at the time, otherwise he should probably find a new agent.

[phxMILWfan]

JJ needs to understand supply and demand. This year he supplied very little quality play and because the team has a younger, faster, better defensive, cheaper option already in the system... the demand for keeping him on the team is very low. He's expendable. The team owes him nothing. If he wanted to stay in the majors and sign a big contract he should have played better.

 

I know that some of you will have better knowledge of this than I do but I'm wondering if the team didn't do him a favor by delaying his FA year. How much money would you throw at a slow .229/.300 hitter with 11 HR? I know those stats are only from this year but even his career stats are underwhelming. Add all of that to his whining about where he hits in the lineup I don't even want him on my team. Back to supply and demand, how many SS are out there that teams would want to sign? If Jack Z didn't go after him I think that is telling. He acquired BILL HALL and not JJ.

[derflotr]

His career stats are absolutely not underwhelming considering his position. 2007 was a very good season for JJ and he showed improvement on those numbers in 2008. He's still a terrific SS defensively and it's likely this season is just an aberration for him offensively. He deserves to be starting at SS somewhere. He's already come out and said he understands the situation so it's not like he's being difficult. He doesn't "need to understand" anything.

 

 

I just wish we didn't have to do the Hardy/Escobar lineup shuffle every day for the rest of the season.

[bklynbrewcrew]

I blame Melvin for this whole JJ situation for this reason, it was obvious that a decision had to be made between JJ and Escobar before this season and Melvin never made that decision. JJ has been looking over his back for Escobar and has not been able to focus due to this. Melvin needed to sign JJ long term and trade Escobar or trade JJ before the season. Now we have Hardy knowing he is a goner and that cant help his play. Therefore my only logical conclusion is to blame Melvin for JJ having a bad year.

[phxMILWfan]

I don't see how it is Melvin's fault. If JJ had the mental toughness he would have had a good year and found himself starting for this team or another team next year. Instead he was mentally weak and worried about something he had no control over and allowed it to ruin his season and the teams season.

[Oldcity]

I blame Melvin for this whole JJ situation for this reason, it was obvious that a decision had to be made between JJ and Escobar before this season and Melvin never made that decision.

 

I disagree strongly. There was no decision to make; Hardy was the shortstop this year. Escobar wasn't ready this season. Using him was not an option. The decision that needs to be made is for next season.

[Invader3K]

Hardy was the shortstop this year. Escobar wasn't ready this season.

 

Exactly. People forget Escobar is only 22 and had barely played in AAA at all before this season. If the team had traded Hardy and Escobar struggled with the Brewers, the same people would be complaining about Melvin retaining the wrong shortstop and "rushing him too early, wasting service time," etc.

[endaround]

You know how sucky Hardy played this year? Basically his complete fall off? That's the expectation for Escobar right now. I don't understand the need to rush him. This isn't like Gamel who was dominating AAA pitching before he got called up.

[Hate those Rodents]

Did Hardy play much triple A before jumping to the majors from AA? I know expectations might have been slightly different, but I think .500 was a realistic goal both this season and the season JJ came up as a rookie. Sorry to rain on those expecting playoffs this season's parade, but this pitching staff had very little chance of getting us over .500.

 

So back to the first point, if Hardy could skip AAA, why is it not Melvin's fault for figuring out the SS picture before this season was completed?