JJ Hardy optioned to AAA- Latest: Per McCalvy, JJ will be left at AAA and add another year before free agency

[TooLiveBrew]

Your mocking of stats really makes me wonder how much you actually care to understand this at all.

[sheethead]

It was a metaphor.

[PeaveyFury]

Thanks for making me read through four pages of off-topic stuff looking for actual posts about JJ Hardy.

[logan82]

I just don't believe WAR gives enough credit to great players vs. terrible players.

 

For a guy to raise his batting average by 50 points he has to get only one more hit a week, yet there is a huge difference in perception between a guy hitting .250 and a guy hitting .300. Breaking down and looking at how stats are calculated it is pretty easy to see the difference between being a great player and an average player is pretty small.

[rluzinski]

I think that dollar amunt is absurd, since only FA's see it...pre-arby and even arby eligible guys get far less.

 

It's a metric that attempts to gauge the value of free agent production, based on what teams have been willing to spend for it in the past. The disconnect here is that teams would use a projection to determine expected future production. 5 months of production is going to have a lot more variance, so you are going to naturally see very large numbers at times. And there's a lot of uncertainly in those defensive metrics, so one year's worth of data isn't worth much on its own. I've heard the creator of UZR say that 3 years of UXR is about equal to 1 year of hitting stats, so that has to be kept in mind. Of course, Hardy's UZR the last four years has been +6, +15, +8 and +8, so I don't think that +8 from last year is especially inflated.

 

Is tango's method (which fangraphs mostly corpied) perfect? I can't imagine. I think it's on the right track, however and I think it still has a lot of value. Most of the criticism I see being offered up here is based on a misunderstanding of how it works and what it's trying to do.

 

The truth is, it's a worthless number, because half the teams have a payroll far less than what it would cost to put together a playoff team.

 

I think we could both agree that constructing a playoff team with all free agents would be an expensive proposition.

 

If it can't be calculated easily, it's worthless anyway.

 

Al, people aren't exactly using slide rules and trig tables these days. If it's simple enough that a guy can code it to automatically update on his website every day, it's probably not too all that hard to calculate. And nothing about it is a black box, as far as I know. It's all out there for people to read about for free, if they cared enough to.

[DougJones43]

Hardy to teturn Tuedsay

 

Hardy felt like he was being punished

 

This is all getting more ugly than I had hoped. I wish they would have left Hardy down until the AAA season was over. Timing it out so that Hardy ends up with exactly 20 days in the minors makes the move appear more underhanded. If he was truly there to work on his swing, why not let him keep hitting there for another week? It's not like he's been hitting very well, so just calling him back up right after 20 days makes this thing stink like it's not just about performance.

 

Hardy seems pretty bitter. I don't see anyway he's back next year.

[Invader3K]

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/56430412.html?c=y&commentSubmitted=y

 

Fresh comments from Hardy, via Witrado:

 

"It's been simmering. There are questions in my mind," Hardy said. "The more and more I think about it, the more I think, 'Why would they do this to me?'

 

"It beat me up inside. For them to give up on me this year, it kinda hurt. I definitely feel like I was being punished."

[Bruce Ciskie]

Can we just park JJ on the bench for the rest of the season? Then he'll have something to stick his lower lip out about.

 

This is ridiculous. The franchise isn't run by vindictive fools. It's run by intelligent baseball people who are trying to make their players as good as possible. For JJ to question their motives is just a sign that he doesn't truly get the reason behind his demotion. If he didn't want to be in AAA for 20 days, maybe he should have tried posting an OBP better than .279. Go down there and rake, and give them no choice but to bring you back as soon as possible.

 

Instead, JJ went there and pouted. I have no respect for a player like that. Take that right index finger you have sticking out towards the GM and put it in your own chest.

[rluzinski]

I think everyone in the media should write a lot of articles and blog posts about how terrible it is for a player to be upset about having to wait another year to be a free agent. maybe see mean things about him on sports radio. The fans will eat that up!

[bacon06]

"It beat me up inside. For them to give up on me this year, it kinda hurt. I definitely feel like I was being punished."

 

Right, you were being punished for not performing, JJ. What's not to understand?

[mothershipconnection]

"I definitely feel like I was being punished."

 

It's only punishment if it functions as punishment. If the future probability of JJ playing like a AAAA garbageman decreases, then it was punishment.

I understand baseball is different from real life, but I'd be fired if I performed as bad at work as Hardy did at the plate. I'm paid to be above-average at what I do, if I performed at a "75 OPS+ level" for about 2/3 of a year, I wouldn't be around unless I had a good reason.

[RockCoCougars]

Everyone here acts like Hardy was hitting .170 with 2 homers and booting tons of balls in the field. This simply wasn't the case. I'd go further to suggest that even in this down season- factoring in his defense, I'd say he fell somewhere in the middle of the pack of N.L. shortstops. Obviously, everyone was disappointed in his season this year, but he's always been streaky at the plate, he just never got on a good streak this year. He's always seemed to be a solid teammate and has been a solid offensive contributor the past two seasons. He's been bad this year, but not Royce Clayton or Jose Hernandez bad.

 

Again, I view this as a premeditated move with the sole motive of tinkering with his service time. Not sure this is the way you want to treat your employees, especially considering that Hardy seems to be very close with Rickie Weeks among others. This nonsense is just going to give the team a bad rap with players around the league. Just a year ago, everyone wanted to run Weeks out of town as well. Amazing how two hot months changes people's perspectives. Hardy seems to be the new target.

 

There is no way Hardy comes back next year, and his trade value has been diminished big time. Other teams know that the Brewers' hands are forced, so they will get low return when he is traded this offseason. Personally, I give him a lot of credit for reporting back to the team. Under similar circumstances, I would file a grievance with the union and go home for the rest of the year.

[Funketown]

In retrospect, this move probably was made with the intentions of getting an extra year of service. That said, even if upper management didn't handle this well (not saying they didn't), I don't think Hardy is being robbed of his right to free agency, as he seems to believe. Whether it was simply due to bad luck or not, Hardy's stat line was pretty miserable this year, and his offensive production did not really warrant him being an everyday major league player. Now, we can talk all we want about defense (I, for one, still saw Hardy as a valuable player even hitting like he had), but in the end, defensive metrics are defensive metrics, and very few people seem to have a great understanding of their significance. I seriously doubt the fanbase (with the exception of the 12 year old girls) will sympathize with poor J.J. Hardy, who was demoted for poor performance at the office. I hope I'm right in this.

 

(And yes, the pouty face Nashville Sounds picture has influenced my views on this subject)

[kramnoj]

Everyone here acts like Hardy was hitting .170 with 2 homers and booting tons of balls in the field.

 

If this is the case, you should be able to prove a lot of examples of this. But it isn't the case. Hardy was performing badly offensively. His defense was good, but having good defense isn't a reason to keep Hardy in the bigs when Escobar was available. Hardy's offense was hurting the team, and giving Escobar a chance to help the team makes perfect sense.

 

He's been bad this year, but not Royce Clayton or Jose Hernandez bad.

 

That's an interesting comparison, since Hardy's OPS+ this season is the same as Jose's worst with the team.

 

There is no way Hardy comes back next year, and his trade value has been diminished big time

 

His trade value has been diminished because of his poor play. I'm going to guess that any GM is going to care more about the fact that he played badly enough to earn a demotion, not the fact that he finally got his demotion.

[TooLiveBrew]

So first when he wasn't hitting under Yost, it was because he was batting 8th, & not 2nd... then under Macha he wasn't hitting because he wasn't getting enough time off -- but he didn't have the guts to tell Macha so... and now he's getting jobbed by getting (deservedly) sent to AAA & being kept under team control for another season so the Brewers don't get jack squat for him?

 

Sorry J.J., the excuses have gotten old. You want to be on a big-league roster? Play your way back on. When you haven't even been able to outhit Escobar, you just have no business complaining & running your mouth. The entitlement some people feel is just beyond me.

 

 

This nonsense is just going to give the team a bad rap with players around the league. Just a year ago, everyone wanted to run Weeks out of town as well. Amazing how two hot months changes people's perspectives. Hardy seems to be the new target.

 

No, everyone didn't. I know there were many people here who kept saying it would be foolish to give up on Weeks. It's too bad his injury derailed what was an awesome season. As for Hardy, I really don't see how anyone can stand up for the guy at this point. To hear him tell it, he was just a model citizen & how dare the big, bad, mean Brewers treat him like anything less than the golden boy he is!

 

EDIT: (& I'd like to add that I think I've been a big supporter of Hardy over the years on this forum -- from defending him against the cries that he was injury prone & would never amount to anything, to earlier this season when I thought his offensive WOAHs had to be luck-related)

[brewizard]

SCREW JOB!!!!

 

This is soooooo UGLY!!! And I thought the Seligs were bad. This is worse than anything they pulled.

 

I'm so disgusted by Melvin's SCREW JOB and the general reaction of glee on this board that I'm sick to be a Brewers fan.

 

This is a board that prides itself on upstanding behavior. And you root for this kind of management.

 

I know Hardy didn't help himself much this year, but this is a SCREW JOB! I hope Hardy does get traded. He needs to get out of this swamp!

 

This team is a sham! It is an ugly, backwater, cheap, sham team run by an over-meddlesome investment banker and a mustache-twirling GM who can't evaluate pitching and blames everyone else for it.

 

It is a team that hopes a few well drafted boppers and some worn out mules for pitchers will somehow manage to win just enough games to con the stupid (myself included) fan base into buying tickets for just another year.

 

Well I'm not drunk enough anymore!!

 

This team isn't about winning. It isn't about representing our fair city. It isn't about putting the best team on the field. It never really has been.

 

This move was obviously not designed to help Hardy get going nor engineered for Escobar to get established. This move was solely designed to screw Hardy on behalf of some unknown trading partner.

 

There is no other way around it.

 

I'm so angry and disgusted! I can't believe I bought season tickets! UGLY!

[OldSchoolSnapper]

When JJ Hardy is somewhere else next year hitting .230 with 8 homers in August, you'll be glad we have Escobar starting, and, hopefully a mediocre pitcher.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

And where can I find said "pouty Nashville Sounds" picture?

[JimH5]

If Hardy feels angry about his contract situation, he matches my anger over his shortstop-playing situation.

 

Underperforming players who complain about money need to reassess their lot in life.

 

The Brewers did the right thing for the organization. He's worth so much more in trade knowing he can't command a high salary.

[Invader3K]

This move was solely designed to screw Hardy on behalf of some unknown trading partner.

 

Trade maybe, yes...but this idea that the Brewers screwed over Hardy is beyond belief to me.

 

Some people on here seem to think the Brewers need to hand hold and coddle every single player in their system, no matter if it's a stud prospect or a perennial journeyman. Sometimes players have to be held accountable for their poor play. That's what the Brewers did. The fact that they gain an extra year of service time (after playing him earlier in his career than was maybe justified by his level of play at the time) is just making a good business decision out of a negative circumstance.

 

Players leave for free agency and play hardball with contracts all the time, and it's "just business." A team puts an under performing player in AAA and gains one extra year of service time (again, after calling him up early in his career and starting his arbitration clock early), and suddenly it's a "screw job."

 

Give me a break.

[jackalope02ca]

Doug just proves he's smarter all the time. JJ plays terrible all year. The team should have sent him down a month or more before they did but they wait to the last second to give JJ a chance to snap out of things. He doesn't do it so they send him down and in the process he manages to drive back up JJ's trade value which was getting close to nil by adding the extra year on.

 

JJ has always been one of my favourite brewers but when i see crybaby athletes I think they need a good slap across the face to wake them up to the reality of the world. None of these guys have a clue what life is really like. They all live in a fantasy world. They don't work shiftwork, don't have to worry about making the next mortgage payment, or wonder how they are going to replace the fridge that just conked out. Give me a break. You are lucky. You are a gifted athlete. Don't pout. Perform. Or else you'll find yourself playing in some back water town in Taiwan or Mexico somewhere. Because there is always a kid waiting to take your job. And it just happened. So you'd better deal with it JJ without acting like my 6 year old does when she doesn't get what she wants.

[dlk9s]

Obviously JJ hasn't hit well this year. Sending guys down so they can work things out, even guys with a very good track record, isn't unusual. I'm not all the way on the "OMG TRAVESTY! OMG DOUG MELVIN IS GORDON GECKO!" side, but it does seem fishy to me that JJ was sent down on a date when it would be exactly 20 days at September call-ups time. Plus, it's not like he's done anything to "deserve" a return trip back to the bigs, so they can't use the reasoning that he has figured things out.

 

Just seems odd.

[Invader3K]

JJ was sent down on a date when it would be exactly 20 days at September call-ups time

 

It goes both ways. It can be argued they gave him as much time as possible to turn his season around, before deciding they wanted to get the most value they could salvage from their investment.

[sheethead]

Everyone here acts like Hardy was hitting .170 with 2 homers and booting tons of balls in the field.

 

He was through 60+ games in 2005. He should have been sent back down at that time. Then this would have been a non-issue. The Brewers set a precedent with Hardy early in his career (to take as long as you need to improve), and that precedent is no longer valid with better options available.

 

Hardy is a streaky hitter, and if he doesn't get his patented two week binder of fire-hot hitting he looks bad. He only had one of those streaks this year, and thus looked really bad the rest of the year when looking at his statistical production.

 

Was it handled poorly? I think so only because they should have left him in Nashville until the Sounds season is over. He is not needed in Milwaukee right now, and with a .279 OBP in AAA has certainly not earned his way back up.

[Thurston Fluff]

It's hard to read JJ's comments and not see him as a sniveling little cry baby. Even if it was done to gain another year of control it isn't wrong to do. He may feel it was unfair because it was an off the field issue but it was not an off the team issue. If he had performed on the field then none of this happens. The team has a duty to it's fans, ones who have the 6th highest attendance in baseball, to do everything it can to make sure the team is competitive every year. That means they have to get something of value for JJ after this year. That something of value went down due to his poor play. That forced the Brewers to do something radical to maximize his value despite his poor play. They did what I expect the team who takes my hard earned dollars to do. Everything possible to be the best possible.

Hey JJ we suffered through your injuries and poor play. Now we want something in return. That something is expected to be more than Bill Hall type production. So far your career is more like Hall's than we care to see.