Mench To Phillies?

[cancer47]

Why bother with Lieber at all, other than to get rid of an excess player? Unless there are some serious questions regarding Ohka, I believe he'd be worth just as much as Lieber, and we know who he is, and that he fits well here. Plus he's younger and, at this point, quite a bit cheaper, unless the Phils pick up a big chunk of Lieber's salary.

 

This trade doesn't really make us any better, just gets rid of an OF we don't need. We can always argue about this being some kind of "chess move" that sets up another trade or signing down the road, but as it stands, I guess I'm not thrilled about it at this point.

[steve267268]

Quote:

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TRADE THEM BOTH! comon melvin, do something so i won't be bored as hell at work.

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Quote of the month, in my book.

[sbrylski]

Steve, what is this quote in your sig in reference to?

 

"Man. What is it about these Brewers?" - BelmontShore of Philaphans.com

[Rob]

Posted by Kevin Goldstein @ December 5, 2006, 02:26 PM

 

Guy No. 1 stopping me in the lobby tells me about rumored deal between Milwaukee and Philadelphia that basically involves Kevin Mench for Jon Leiber. It kind of makes sense for both sides in a way, even more so if the Phillies find a takes for Pat Burrell.

[tommyboy42609]

probably something to do with how we handled the phillies last year

[hauser42]

I understand the feelings about having a solid bench, but I don't think the Brewers have any chance any year if they have to rely on their bench too much. Besides, there are bench bargains out there every year.

 

No one is saying that we need to rely on the bench. It would be better for when we rest players or for the short term injuries. Contending teams have a couple decent players on the bench.

 

Only spot to put a big time player would be in a corner OF in Hall is moving to CF. Cost of them right now is insane.

 

Lets see what Lieber does outside of the Philly band box.

[RyDogg66]

The big difference is that usually we are signing a Leiber type to be our number 2 starter (See Todd Ritchie) but in this case Leiber is going to counted on to anchor the bottom half of the rotation with Vargas.

 

I'd would so much rather have Leiber and Vargas as numbers 4/5 than Jackson/Hendrickson/Helling/Eveland/De La Rosa.

 

Speaking of depth we are sorely lacking in depth for the starting rotation. This trade would go a long way to solving that problem.

[Dough73]

Would you rather have these four guys,

 

Lieber $7,500,000

Miller $2,250,000

Clark $3,800,000

Counsell $3,000,000

 

or Barry Zito for $16,000,000?

[yoyomayoma]

Here's a blurb on mlbtraderumors.com that I found interesting:

 

One deal that was rumored a few weeks ago was Aaron Rowand for Mench and, perhaps, Damian Miller.

 

Personally I'm not a big Rowand guy.

[gbpacker40]

Id rather keep Mench than have Rowand personally.

[RyDogg66]

I'd take Rowand off of their hands for that.

 

I'd also like to have Zito, but not if meant our bench was made up of Chris Barnwell, Chad Moeller, Luis Lopez, Angel Echavarria and James Mouton.

[sbrylski]

No thanks on Rowand. He had one good year two years ago, and recently has struggled worse than Mench, and in a hitter park.

[Dough73]

Quote:

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I'd also like to have Zito, but not if meant our bench was made up of Chris Barnwell, Chad Moeller, Luis Lopez, Angel Echavarria and James Mouton.

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Who's saying that would be our bench? We would have Graffy, TGJ, Cirillo, and Rivera.

[hauser42]

I'd take Rowand off of their hands for that.

 

I'd also like to have Zito, but not if meant our bench was made up of Chris Barnwell, Chad Moeller, Luis Lopez, Angel Echavarria and James Mouton.

 

I agree with taking Rowand off them. Add a little grit to this team and another bat. OF becomes a little more flexibility.

 

 

Reality is we cannot have Zito. And after last years horrible showing and RyDog's proposed bench I know we need the help there.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

TooLive:

 

While I commend you on the well-researched post, remember, I'm a guy who's less impressed when the guys we pay to smack the bejeezus out of the ball with men on base, settle for a walk instead.

 

I understand your point, believe me. An increase in the walk rate IS indeed a harbinger of a more disciplined, maturing hitter. But I just want to mix in a finished product, for once, with all these youngsters doing on-the-job training.

 

I fear/suspect Doug was authorized to spend $10-15 million extra on the roster, and he's spreading it out on multiple has-been's, instead of just absorbing the salary or 1 or even 2 higher-quality players instead.

 

You have every right to take the conservative route (hell, you're in the vast majority among Brewer fans) with regard to pinning your hopes on the development of our nuggets. But when Carlos Lee was salary-dumped, it left a bazooka hole in our offense. The money intended for him is still mostly available (and moreso if/when hacks like Mench, Clark and a few others leave town).

 

So if I'm Mark Attanasio, ready to spend to put us back on the map, and I ask Doug Melvin where that $15,000,000 went, I'd be very unhappy if DM says it's already spent on Counsell, Graffanino, Shouse, a poorly-aging Jon Lieber and some bustout like Rodrigo Lopez.

[vacin8r]

To continue what mlbtraderumors.com had:

they mention that there could be a 3-way:

Mench to Philly

Damien Miller to either Philly or ChiSox(it was a little vague)

Rowand to ChiSox

one of ChiSox starters to Milwaukee (presumably either Garcia or Vasquez)

 

Im not crazy about losing Damien in the deal, but either way, I dont mind having Rivera and dont what his minor league options are anyways. I think Id do this if I was any of the teams. Philly gets Mench who I guess they want and possibly a good catcher for Rowand who I have heard they want to unload. ChiSox get there CFer, one who I know from talking to ChiSox fans would make them very very happy. And the Brewers get the solid middle of the rotation pitcher theyve been after. Philly also saves Lieber for themselves, or to trade him later, and the Brewers have some flexibility as well(perhaps the CVil/Aquino/Cappellan for Baldelli trade rumored elsewhere). We then move Jenkins for bullpen help and I really like the roster.

-Don

[brewerfan82]

Quote:

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To continue what mlbtraderumors.com had:

they mention that there could be a 3-way:

Mench to Philly

Damien Miller to either Philly or ChiSox(it was a little vague)

Rowand to ChiSox

one of ChiSox starters to Milwaukee (presumably either Garcia or Vasquez)

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That's not what I got from the mlbtraderumors.com posting:

 

Quote:

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So this is interesting: the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel (perhaps optimistically) speculates that Mench could be part of a deal for Jon Lieber. If speculation can lend credence to other speculation, here's some: the Philadelphia Inquirer mentions that the Phillies could deal Rowand to the White Sox for one of Chicago's surplus starters, freeing up Lieber for a different deal.

 

This all makes plenty of sense: it's essentially a three-way trade in which the White Sox get the CF they want and make room in the rotation for Brandon McCarthy; the Phillies get the corner bat they want, improve the rotation, and open up center for Shane Victorino; and the Brewers take on a bit of payroll (which they have room for, a least a few million's worth) and fill their one need at the meetings: a mid-rotation starter to take the pressure off of some combination of Claudio Vargas, Carlos Villanueva, and Zach Jackson.

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Sounds like:

White Sox get Rowand

Phillies get Mench and Vazquez/Garcia

Brewers get Lieber

[vacin8r]

Ahh, I could have misread it, sorry. I do like garcia or vasquez better than lieber though. Can we make that happen?http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

-Don

[brewerfan82]

I agree. If we can swing a deal for one of the White Sox pitchers, I'd be much happier than getting Lieber.

[DHonks]

I prefer Lieber to those two.

[brewerfan82]

Jon Lieber (37 years old; 2007: $7.5m)

ERA WHIP W L GS IP HR BB SO AVG

3-Yr Avg 4.46 1.28 13.3 10.7 29.7 187.7 26.7 27.7 117 .283

 

Freddy Garcia (32 years old; 2007: $10m)

ERA WHIP W L GS IP HR BB SO AVG

3-Yr Avg 4.07 1.25 14.7 9.3 32.3 218.1 26.7 57.3 155 .256

 

Javier Vazquez (30 years old; 2007: $12.5m w/ ARI paying $2.5m)

ERA WHIP W L GS IP HR BB SO AVG

3-Yr Avg 4.72 1.28 12.0 12.3 32.3 205.4 30.3 54.0 175 .260

 

I'd go Garcia, Vazquez, Lieber in order of preference (with Garcia most preferable).

 

Edit: updated to reflect players' ages for 2007 according to baseball-reference.

[thumperden]

You beat me to if brewerfan82. Take Freddy Garcia and like it. It's really a no-brainer if given a choice between the three.

[DHonks]

what about some sort of park adjusted stats, seeing as Lieber plays in a launching pad and against some really solid teams. Plus, as you point out, he's significantly cheaper. Seems to me that factoring in the park he pitches in, that his ERA might dip a bit.

[brewerfan82]

ERA+ (park adjusted) numbers over the past 3 seasons (04-06), courtesy of baseball-reference.com:

 

Lieber: 104, 108, 94

Garcia: 121, 115, 103

Vazquez: 92, 91, 96

 

Garcia still gets the nod and I still have a man-crush on Vazquez from his Montreal days... So you probably have a case for Lieber over Vazquez, but he's still young enough to turn it around.

 

Still, since it's not my money, I'll take one of the younger guys http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[thumperden]

I'm excited that the Brewers are finally in a position to deal for some name players. Thanks Doug Melvin! I should send him a Christmas Card saying something like Merry Christmas, eh!