Mench To Phillies?

[Bikeage77]

From Rotoworld:

 

The Phillies are showing interest in Kevin Mench, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

 

The paper speculates that Jon Lieber could be part of a deal for Mench. Mench has also been the subject of trade talks with the Orioles, but Baltimore is now reportedly more interested in Geoff Jenkins.

[BuckyTuba]

TRADE THEM BOTH! comon melvin, do something so i won't be bored as hell at work.

[areacodes]

Quote:

---

Jon Lieber

---

 

Thats a lot more than a bag of balls

[RyDogg66]

Quote:

---

TRADE THEM BOTH! comon melvin, do something so i won't be bored as hell at work.

---

 

I echo this statement. A man can only hit F5 so many times in a day.

[Brian the Automator]

[ Thats a lot more than a bag of balls ]

 

That's a very expensive bag of balls.

 

A Jenks for Lieber straight-up deal would benefit both clubs, as the salaries are pretty much a wash, and they're both FA's at the end of the year.

[splitterpfj]

I could live with Lieber for a year. He clearly slipped last year, but he was solid just the year before, and we are offering outfielders who clearly slipped last year too.

 

Just curious guys, if it comes down to Mench for one of these guys, would you rather get Lieber or Lopez?

 

Jenkins for Lopez does not thrill me, I think the Phils are going to want a righty bat, so he's probably out there too. The Dodgers might be a fit for Jenks, but I think they'll end up with Luis Gonzalez.

[cooprules]

I would rather have Lieber I guess. I don't know. I didn't think we'd get crap for these guys so any major league starter would be good, I guess.

[JohnBriggs12]

$16,550,000 and counting.

 

That's what the Brewers would be paying the following aging players if this deal goes down:

 

Lieber $7,500,000

Miller $2,250,000

Clark $3,800,000

Counsell $3,000,000

 

Wow. All that for players past their prime who's production could be matched by minimum or close to minimum salary guys. Throw in Graffanino (another backup) and you have to wonder if that money would be better spent on one premium type player.

 

Spending for spending sake. Not a route I would take.

[endaround]

Well, at least Lieber would be a starter.

[cooprules]

Can't argue there, Briggs. Didn't realize Lieber made that much.

[trwi7]

It's not like we'd be adding salary and Lieber would only be for a year...just like Jenkins.

[tigerbrew]

Quote:

---

Just curious guys, if it comes down to Mench for one of these guys, would you rather get Lieber or Lopez?

---

 

I'd prefer to get Lieber than Lopez.

[splitterpfj]

I get what you're saying JBriggs, but I'm not as bothered by that particular group of contracts as you are. Only one of those contracts runs beyond this season, and none of them is a horrid contract if you consider the circumstances under which they were signed.

 

The Brewers may yet deal Clark, and if they don't, they'll pay him for one more year, Miller's in his last year, when he was signed catcher was a black hole for the Brewers, Lieber's deal is a lot of cash for a year, but considering he signed that as a free agent, it doesn't suprise me that he'll get 7.5. The one contract there that seems most questionable is Counsell....but I think the thread debating that move is long enough by now.

 

What I don't get is the Phillies. Why give Adam Eaton a three year deal at the same money per year, then move Lieber. Sorry, I don't believe Eaton is a big deal in the least, they've basically extended Lieber's deal by two years, and given it to a guy who's not been durable.

 

What this shows me most is the importance of developing from within. None of the players listed came from within the organization, three of those four deals were free agent contracts, which have a tendency to be bad deals, especially at the end of the contract, which most of those are. That's a pricey way to get talent, and if you don't get in the mix for the best free agents, it doesn't take long to have 4-5 guys of this sort on your bench for a year.

 

Going big in free agency would make a lot more sense to me, except the deals have gotten too long. Let's say the Brewers decided to sell out and pay 18M a year for a guy that might put them over the top. That's great, until you see that those deals are now 6 or 8 years....look at the list of overpaid, over the hill guys we have now...and imagine if one of those guys was making as much as that whole list will get. BAD UGLY.

[princeginterhallhelms04]

I like Lieber but i would like it alot more if the phillies would pay half of his salary i would do that if we payed 3.5 million. Come on Doug you got the Jays to pay for our third basemen do it to Gilick!

[zzzmanwitz]

that's pretty much what you have to do when you add veteran players. I'd rather have a couple of vets over one stud and a bunch of inexperienced players.

[hauser42]

$16,550,000 and counting.

 

That's what the Brewers would be paying the following aging players if this deal goes down:

 

Lieber $7,500,000

Miller $2,250,000

Clark $3,800,000

Counsell $3,000,000

 

Wow. All that for players past their prime who's production could be matched by minimum or close to minimum salary guys. Throw in Graffanino (another backup) and you have to wonder if that money would be better spent on one premium type player.

 

Spending for spending sake. Not a route I would take

 

That one premuim player would not give us solid depth.

 

Miller backup C instead of Moeller.

 

4th OF Clark instead of some of the clowns that we have had ove the last couple years.

 

Counsell backup INF needed as Hall will be fulltime.

 

With out these players we would have Barnwell, Gwynn, and Riviera on the bench. WOW really got a lot talent if we have an injury. These guys would not match the veterans, and it is not spending for the sake of spending.

[RyDogg66]

I agree with hauser on this one. It isnt like we are locking up guys like Miller, Leiber, Clark and Counsell to huge long term deals. Other than Counsell I can say with 100% certainty that Clark, Leiber, Miller and Graffanino will be off the books for 2008. Therefore they do not really cost us anything after this year. Besides the increase in salary between Jenkins and/or Mench is either zero (Jenkins) or 3.5 million.

 

Leiber would be welcomed to hold down the #4/5 spot in the rotation, and if it meant we could trade Carlos Villanueva in a Rocco Baldelli deal it would be even better.

[JohnBriggs12]

I understand the feelings about having a solid bench, but I don't think the Brewers have any chance any year if they have to rely on their bench too much. Besides, there are bench bargains out there every year.

 

I agree to that if Villanueva was traded for Baldelli, Lieber could keep that rotation spot warm until Gallardo comes up. The downside of that is if Lieber puts up a 6 ERA in 3 months while Villanueva is getting AAA hitters out with ease at Nashville. At some point, a franchise like the Brewers has to actually insert a young pitcher in there. They have been afraid to do so since 2001 with Sheets. They've never done it under Melvin who is constantly seeking insurance.

 

But why not just offer Ohka a one year deal for that amount? Heck they didn't even bother offering him arbitration.

 

I like Ohka a lot more than soon to be 37 year old Lieber.

[TooLiveBrew]

Quote:

---

What this shows me most is the importance of developing from within. None of the players listed came from within the organization, three of those four deals were free agent contracts, which have a tendency to be bad deals, especially at the end of the contract, which most of those are. That's a pricey way to get talent, and if you don't get in the mix for the best free agents, it doesn't take long to have 4-5 guys of this sort on your bench for a year.

---

I like it Splitter. I also agree that it's important to keep in mind that the 'bad' contracts being discussed are not long term (including Lieber)

 

From Lieber's $7.5 mil '07 salary, I think it's in our interest to swing Mench on that one, since we can then feasibly demand that Philly eat some of that number. Let's say Mench gets $2.5 mil in arbitration. I think it's reasonable to ask that we pay $5 mil for Lieber in '07, leaving the Phils with a $5 mil bill for '07.

 

Jenkins, on the other hand, should carry a higher value. I obviously think he should be able to land Kris Benson from the O's (perhaps with another smallish piece) - see the thread. Likewise, it may take a bit more than merely Mench to land Lieber, but in both cases, worthy investments for the Crew.

 

To stay on topic, Lieber is a durable RHP. While he won't pop the radar gun or be a #1 guy, he's 126-115 in his 12-year MLB career. He's exactly the kind of experienced pitcher the rotation could use

[trwi7]

Quote:

---

4th OF Clark instead of some of the clowns that we have had ove the last couple years.

---

 

Somebody was going to say it, it might as well be me. Chris Magruder.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"That one premuim player would not give us solid depth. "

 

Yeah, but how do you think we're better off? With that $16.5 million distributed to 17 players, or given to a slugger who deserves that much, alone.

 

Or how about a Jose Guillen at $5.5 million (great signing by the Mariners), along with an $11,000,000 starting pitcher?

 

I hate all this continual quantity over quality. The only way I'm placated is if DM packages about 3-4 of these rummies like Clark, Miller, Jenkins, Turnbow, Counsell, Graffanino, for a serious upgrade in our 3-6 hitters, and/or our rotation.

[AJ Love]

{$16,550,000 and counting.}

 

Indeed. For that 16.5 Million I'd prefer one great player over a bunch of depth.

[areacodes]

Quote:

---

Indeed. For that 16.5 Million I'd prefer one great player over a bunch of depth.

---

Don't forget though, that 13.5 mil of that 16.5 mil will be off the books after next year. Where as with that 16.5 mil great player (we might have been able to get Lee or Soriano with a little more and I wouldn't consider them great) over many more years. Not to mention there is a possibility that Miller and Clark are traded so they wouldn't even be included in the figure. Before we start complaining about the cost of the bench, lets see what Dougie has up his sleeve.

[TooLiveBrew]

GenoSeligPrieb - I think the "serious upgrade in our 3-6 hitters" is going to come from simply our own young players improving. I most certainly believe the upgrade via trade will come in our Pitching Rotation. Fielder, Hall, and Hart all will be marked improvements on our offense in 2007.

 

Take Fielder, for example. While he certainly tapered off, batting .221 in August & .239 in Sept., he also went from averaging 9 BBs/month from April to July to 13BBs/mo. the rest of the way. I know that doesn't seem huge, but plate discipline is, IMO, the single greatest element of a slugger going from good to great.

 

Hall, too, went through a similar transformation. Hovering around 7-8 BBs/mo. through July, Hall drew 19 BBs in August & 16 BBs in Sept.

 

While neither sounds like a career-altering shift, consider this:

 

Fielder 2006 BBs: 59

 

Hall 2006 BBs: 63

 

A full season for Fielder @ 13 BBs/mo: 78 BBs

 

A full season for Hall @ 17 BBs/mo: 102 BBs

 

 

I know it's not entirely fair or accurate to take a good stretch and then project that for a full season, but I think for example's sake, this works. This would improve each player's OBP & OPS significantly, and this is the area (BBs) where I see both Fielder & Hall improving in 2007, which will be very impactful & valuable

[AJ Love]

Quote:

---

Before we start complaining about the cost of the bench, lets see what Dougie has up his sleeve.

---

 

Good point. I'm willing to be patient...

 

Back to the Original topic: I'd be pretty happy if we can get a good solid pitcher for Mench, but I would rather have someone under contract for longer than just '07