Jermaine Dye

[barbados73]

I appears that Dye is not in the White Sox plans for next year, and now with Rios coming over the OF is quite crowded. That being said, if the Brewers are going to try to compete Dye would look very good in RF and hitting 5th. Maybe the Brewers could get him somewhat cheap.

[KCBrewerfan34]

Dye's mutual option for 2010 would have to probably be exercised, that being said he's pretty expensive and oft injured.

[nate82]

Not to mention at his age he is probably better as a DH. You would have to keep Cameron or someone as good defensively in CF if you are going to be using Dye in RF taking his age into account. Dye's UZR/150 is at -17.1 and he has been at -21 for the previous 3 years say what you like about the UZR/150 stat but Dye is not a everyday RF anymore he is a DH.

[paulmolitor4]

Dye is not oft injured. He has not had less than 500 AB's since 2003. Also, despite what UZR says, he is still an adequate defender with a decent arm. It's not like he's Adam Dunn, whom many are clamoring for as a potential RF and #5 hitter for 2010. Me, I'd rather take on Dye's contract for a year, and hope the Brewers can make a run with him batting behind Fielder.

[Invader3K]

I think I'd rather just bring Cameron back for another year, if possible.

[Weirdos19]

I would take Dye over Cameron in a heartbeat. Not even close. Put Dye behind Prince and off you go.

 

.290/25/110 is a pretty solid year. A lot better than .240/22/70

[Invader3K]

I think you're referring to Dye's line from last year. He's down slightly from that. Are you sure he won't continue to decline? He'll be 36 next season.

[endaround]

Dye's WAR 0.6

 

Cameron's WAR 2.8

 

I just don't get it.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Most people dont realize just how good and valuable Cameron is. When the Brewers have some .700 OPS guy playing CF who doesnt make nearly the amount off plays Cameron does in CF people will realize how valuable Cameron has been. I really hope we bring Cameron back next season.

[Hate those Rodents]

I think our board over-emphasizes how good Cameron is defensively. I'll take the savings and likely offensive upgrade from moving Hart there and take my chances with money going to pitching and more pitching. I expect to be bombed by quite a few of you for thinking this way.

[endaround]

So who's playing RF and what pitcher is magically going to appear?

 

EDIT: Corey Hart the guy who everyone wants to dump has a WAR of 1.1 or about twice the value of Dye.

[Hate those Rodents]

I'd probably use the money on Harang hypothetically. Corner OF's are a dime a dozen. I'll let Cat be the guy for a year in this scenario to give the Cameron fans more of a shot at being right, but clearly it wouldn't be impossible to find a cost-effective option in right.

[JohnBriggs12]

I'm not too familiar with WAR ratings (I'd call it a tossup between #2, and the Civil myself), though I assume it's a defensive range rating?

 

I do know this. Dye is a proven run producer with big time power. Cameron and Hart are streaky hitters with occasional power surges interspersed with long periods of struggling to make contact. Dye's also been on winners.

 

Dye's range is indeed a concern, but one that doesn't prevent the White Sox from having a team ERA well below the Brewer team ERA.

[nate82]

I think our board over-emphasizes how good Cameron is defensively. I'll take the savings and likely offensive upgrade from moving Hart there and take my chances with money going to pitching and more pitching. I expect to be bombed by quite a few of you for thinking this way.

So you want to sign another Looper with the money that you would be paying for Cameron? Now if you trade for a player you are going to have to give up talent plus the money which puts the team in a bigger hole.

 

Hart loses all of his offensive value if you move him to CF in CF his defense would negate his offensive value. You may get a slight improvement in CF with Hart over Cameron but that improvement is so small it doesn't even matter.

[Hate those Rodents]

I'd take having another Looper and using him in the bullpen or as a 6th starter so that we didn't have to allow CV/Burns to start games this year and believe that we'd be better off than we'd be without LooperX2 and with Cameron. I fail to believe the accuracy of the always mentioned fangraphs site that people shove down throats here based on the millions of dollars of "value" it ties to players like Cameron and Hardy.

 

Give me a second Looper over Cameron and the worst starting rotation depth in major league baseball every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[Never Outhustled]

I think our board over-emphasizes how good Cameron is defensively. I'll take the savings and likely offensive upgrade from moving Hart there

What offensive upgrade? Cameron is having a very good year. He's way better than the average RF offensively. I don't know how so many can bet on Cameron regressing when he's improved his OPS 3 straight years.

[logan82]

I really don't understand the arguing for another Looper instead of Cameron. Looper has been one of the worst SP in MLB this year. Replacing CV, Burns and whoever else with another Looper level pitcher is a minimal upgrade even if we take Looper's best year as a starter.

[paulmolitor4]

I'm so tired of this WAR b.s. It means absolutely nothing to me, and I'm sure it's the same for the vast majority of GM's out there. If you understand and watch the game of baseball you know dang well Dye is a far better option batting behind Fielder than Hart or Cameron. In fact, it's not even close. Dye would at least make opposing teams think before they pitched around Fielder, and Dye would be more likely to make them pay for pitching around Fielder. But you guys go ahead and stick to your WAR like it's the gospel. If it was such a great measure you would hear baseball personnel referring to it all the time.

[logan82]

I would like it if you would quit ignoring defense.

[paulmolitor4]

I'm not ignoring defense. I just don't think WAR accurately represents what a player brings to his team.

[nate82]

I'm not ignoring defense. I just don't think WAR accurately represents what a player brings to his team.

How does it not accurately represent what a player brings to his team?

 

Also GM's are using the WAR stat in a way. Some teams are even taking advantage of these advanced stats. The wins above replacement is a great stat and I believe GM's do use this kind of a stat to determine players to sign and who to get rid of. It may not be exactly the WAR stat but I am going to guess it is pretty darn close.

 

A quick edit here if you are not ignoring defense then why would you want Dye in RF? It is rather obvious to me that Dye is just not a RF anymore and you would need a very good defensive CF to help out in the OF with Dye's decreased range. His defense is nearly going to wipe out any of his offensive production. This is not a player the Brewers should be looking at getting right now.

[Never Outhustled]

If you understand and watch the game of baseball you know dang well Dye is a far better option batting behind Fielder than Hart or Cameron.

Teams would rather pitcher to Dye than Cameron with Fielder on base because Dye gets out more than Cameron.

 

It doesn't help to talk down to the audience here. The people here not only understand baseball, but they also understand very simple mathmatical concepts, something you don't seem willing to grasp.

[paulmolitor4]

If you understand and watch the game of baseball you know dang well Dye is a far better option batting behind Fielder than Hart or Cameron.

Teams would rather pitcher to Dye than Cameron with Fielder on base because Dye gets out more than Cameron.

 

It doesn't help to talk down to the audience here. The people here not only understand baseball, but they also understand very simple mathmatical concepts, something you don't seem willing to grasp.

I'm not intending to talk down to the audience, and if that is what you are recommending I do, then I suggest you do the same. I understand mathematical concepts, I just find the lack of balance in discussion frustrating. I think it's premature to use any one measure to determine a player's value to his team, and there are definitely inadequacies to be found in WAR's calculations.

 

Teams would rather pitch to Dye than Cameron if you are simply talking about OBP, but I think it goes beyond that, as in Dye is a more dangerous hitter and strikes out less. I think most managers would take more into consideration than just OBP.

[paulmolitor4]

I'm not ignoring defense. I just don't think WAR accurately represents what a player brings to his team.

A quick edit here if you are not ignoring defense then why would you want Dye in RF? It is rather obvious to me that Dye is just not a RF anymore and you would need a very good defensive CF to help out in the OF with Dye's decreased range. His defense is nearly going to wipe out any of his offensive production. This is not a player the Brewers should be looking at getting right now.

I just don't put that much stock into UZR. I think Dye is a below average fielder, but not as bad as UZR makes him out to be. According to UZR, Andre Ethier is the worst fielding RF in baseball. I don't buy that either. People can choose to tie themselves to one metric if they like, but I prefer to take more into consideration.

[Hate those Rodents]

Didn't we already determine Gamel would play a lousy 3B and needs to move to 1B or RF before ever playing a major league game at third? He did alright there in a small sample. Who else on our team is really bad defensively? Everyone has had a few bad moments, but I fail to see why we would not want as productive of a batting outfield as we can get, especially if the price for Dye is the same as Cameron.