2009-08-07 Brewers (Villanueva) at Houston (Norris) : 7:05 PM CT [Brewers lose, 6-3] (Merged: Counsell Out At Home)

[PlayerHader]

Questionable decision to send him, but with the Brewer's inability to come up with clutch hits (lately especially) and the fact that El Caballo was out there in the corner in left, an argument could be made that it was worth the risk. It took a great barehanded pick up by Lee, a great throw by Lee, and a terrific relay by Tejada to gun down Counsell.

 

Beyond that, Counsell was clearly safe. What the heck is the umpire doing standing directly behind the catcher to make that call? He couldn't have been in worse position to see a high tag or even a bobble of the ball.

[shelmark]

Being an amateur hack umpire I have for years pondered why the major league umps stand where they do. It seems to me they should be setting up behind the right handed batters box, but for some reason they set up to the right of the left handed batters box. On the replay last night you can clearly see that the umpire was completely blocked, and had no choice but to call him out.

[pitchleague]

First of all, you completely fooled me with the thread title. I was almost positive it was for a link to an Onion article about Craig Counsell not going out to clubs etc. but rather staying at home.

 

On topic, I barely could see the play through my patio window due to the sun glare, so I don't know if he was safe or out (should have went back inside and tivo'd it on slow mo or something), but I do know that I was quite in disagreement with sending the runner from first on a double into the short left field corner of Enron, er, Minute Maid Park. Sure, we all know that Carlos Lee is a hack in left field, but Counsell doesn't have the wheels that he once had (he's still fast, but not like in his hey-day), and the ball was picked up only 315 ft. from the plate. A quick throw to Tejada made things elementary since we all know that he does have a gun for an arm.

 

Bottom line is: one out, runners on 2nd & 3rd with Fielder coming up and Cameron up next (or was it McGehee?)

OR

two out, runner on 2nd with Fielder coming up.

 

I'd choose the first option--especially since it's the first inning! Sure, sending the runner sends a great message to the team and the opponents but he better be safe otherwise the message is, "Hey guys, we're going to make dumb mistakes and run ourselves out of a ballgame."

 

Luckily, Jason Michaels (enters game at .196 with 1 HR) decided to make the play at the plate completely moot. I can't believe we just threw him BP meatballs. "Oh, this guy stinks. Let's just lob them in there and get to the next hitter." *WHAM!* "Gosh, darn it all, that didn't work."

[Eileen Wright]

I remember during the Brewer/National game on Thursday afternoon, July 30th, where a throw home clearly beat Mike Cameron to home plate, but the National catcher ( Nieves) made a poor attempt at a tag, Cameron slid underneath it, and was ruled safe by the home plate umpire. So it can happen where a runner can be ruled safe even when the throw clearly beats him but the umpire can't be lazy, must move himself into proper position, and must care about making the correct call.

[logan82]

I am curious what other play you are referring to.

 

I think there was a play on Wednesday against LA where Counsell slid under a tag as well. Top of the 4th inning. Third out.

 

I thought Counsell slid under the tag as well last night. The umpire positioning is bad. This is just a little less of an annoyance than umpires not getting help on a check swing.

[dlk9s]

I am curious what other play you are referring to.

 

I think there was a play on Wednesday against LA where Counsell slid under a tag as well.

 

I thought Counsell slid under the tag as well last night. The umpire positioning is bad. This is just a little less of an annoyance than umpires not getting help on a check swing.

Yes. It was a head-first dive by Counsell and Martin never actually tagged him. He swiped his glove above Counsell, as if to show the audience that Counsell was not being held up by strings.

[Gobias Industries]

I am curious what other play you are referring to.

 

As I stated above, I dont think last night's call was "blown" -- and frankly Counsell probably should not have been sent. I blame our windmill than I blame blue.

I think it was against LAD were Counsell made a great slide, and Russ Martin went for the tag and got air.

 

The more I think about, the more I blame MLB than the umpires themselves, as it's gotta be next to impossible to tell if a guy gets in there when the throw does beat them by several feet. If you call the guy safe and you turn out to be wrong in a situation like that, it's a million times worse. Instant replay is a no-brainer to me on plays at the plate. It wouldn't be time consuming at all, and we're talking about plays that routinely have huge effects on the game's outcome.

 

Edit: Very slow pony.

[dbo]

I could care less what the call was at home. Fischer's last couple moves he has made were more than questionable. What is so wrong about guys on 2nd and 3rd with one out, with Prince Fielder at the plate?

[logan82]

As I stated above, I dont think last night's call was "blown" -- and frankly Counsell probably should not have been sent. I blame our windmill than I blame blue.

 

I disagree. The call was wrong. It was a blown call. Discussing whether he should have been sent is another matter entirely.

[dadofandrew]

On a close call, umps are wrong almost every time. All 5 HR reviews have been changed. The umps are, simply put, embarrassing.

 

As for the coaching, it took 2 perfect throws to get him, fictionally. I have no problem with that.

[logan82]

What is so wrong about guys on 2nd and 3rd with one out, with Prince Fielder at the plate?

 

The IBB that follows.

[DHonks]

Al, Umps are correct on virtually every play at first base. The issue is more at the plate and at 2nd, and it appears that umps tend to error on the side of "if the ball beat them."

[Fatter than Joey]

Joey, not sure what replay you saw but Counsell's foot clearly reached the plate before Rodriguez made the tag.

 

I was watching Houston's feed -- He looked out to me. I'm not sure what I can tell you.

 

The ump was not in position to make the call...

 

I disagree. The ump clearly hustled out to get where he was supposed to be. I am sure that if you referred to the umpires manual, you would see he was right where he was supposed to be with a throw coming home from LF. He had to be on the 1st base side of Home, otherwise he could have been in the way of the throw. The most important thing the umpire has to see is the runner touching the plate. If he goes to far down 3rd base line, he can't see the runner touch HP, because the runner/catcher will block his view. It wasn't as if the ump never moved from back behind home plate -- I would love to get Luke's opinion, and I would certainly defer to him, as he would know better.

 

El Caballo was out there in the corner in left, an argument could be made that it was worth the risk.

 

I don't think Lee's arm has ever been questioned. He can be lazy, but I don't think he has a Juan Pierre popgun either.

 

It took a great barehanded pick up by Lee, a great throw by Lee, and a terrific relay by Tejada to gun down Counsell.

 

These guys are professionals. I thought the throws, while good, were somewhat routine. I think Braun/Hardy throw out Counsell 9 times out of ten on that play -- or really any LF/SS combination that doesn't flat out suck.

 

It seems to me they should be setting up behind the right handed batters box, but for some reason they set up to the right of the left handed batters box.

 

I think the umps have to do 2 things when that throw is coming in from LF.

 

1.) Stay clear of a throw,

EDIT: I think as well, MLB positions the umps so that if they are looking at the plate, they don't have their back turned to where the throw was coming from.

 

2.) Be able to see the plate, I think if you were below the RH box, it is possible the catcher/runner would block your view of when/if the runner touches the plate -- even though you have a better view of the tag.

 

On the replay last night you can clearly see that the umpire was completely blocked, and had no choice but to call him out.

 

Agreed -- and I think this is the bottomline -- At some point MLB decided that setting the ump out where they do will give the ump the best chance for making the correct call -- however, there are just some plays where the ump is going to be blocked out. There is no magic position for the ump where they will see 100% of the plays.

 

I think there was a play on Wednesday against LA where Counsell slid under a tag as well. Top of the 4th inning. Third out.

 

Yeah, I thought Counsell was probably safe on that one.

 

I think this is just a case of Joey disagreeing just to disagree.

 

Dude, you asked for opinions -- not sure why you feel the need to get all Yosty. Frankly, your post was rather rantish, it wasn't airtight.

[Fatter than Joey]

On a close call, umps are wrong almost every time. All 5 HR reviews have been changed. The umps are, simply put, embarrassing.

 

C'mon Al, small sample.

 

As for the coaching, it took 2 perfect throws to get him, fictionally. I have no problem with that.

 

If you had to guess, how times out of 10 do you think Braun/Hardy get that throw to HP to gun out Counsell?

[jeffy]

it at least seems like Fischer has windmilled us into so many dumb outs at the plate this year.

He has also done the opposite, though maybe not as often. I know he had a ridiculous hold of Corey Hart one time that ended up probably costing a game. I seem to remember one onther questionable hold and there are probably more I didn't see or don't remember.

[jeffy]

Even if it was "two perfect throws" that is not what was required to get him (or at leastto have the ball beat him by plenty, which is all the 3rd base coach can go by...is the ball likely to beat him). He was beaten by so much that even if the ball had taken quite a bit longer to get there, Counsell would have been out (or beaten by the ball).

[dbo]

I have absolutley no idea if this will ever happen but...

 

Ed Sedar does a great job at first so...

 

1st base..WILLY RANDOLPH

3rd base..Ed Sedar

[logan82]

If you had to guess, how times out of 10 do you think Braun/Hardy get that throw to HP to gun out Counsell?

 

Deosn't matter. They were not the ones in the field. I think Fischer may have forgotten that the juice box has a short left field.

 

The umpire may have been where he should be. He wasn't in a position to make the correct call.

 

I just watched the replay and it was much closer than I originally thought. The umpire moved almost into the field of play to make the call. He was not quite off to the side during the play. I think it would have been better if the umpire had tried to get in a better position sooner. He did try to get in a better position though.

[jazzytrav]

The umps are, simply put, embarrassing.

 

This has been the case for years now. I don't even flinch anymore. Umpires have gotten extremely arrogant.

[TooLiveBrew]

I think Fischer may have forgotten that the juice box has a short left field.

 

One point Jim Deshaies (HOU color commentator) made last night was that Fischer couldn't even see El Caballo from his vantage point. Lee kind of disappeared to Fischer's view (they had a replay that showed this angle), so maybe he thought Caballo kicked the ball or something.

 

That said, I agree with the sentiment that Fischer hasn't been too great in terms of sending guys/throwing up the stop-sign. It's just one aspect of a 3B coach's job, but it's the most noticeable one.

[RightFieldCoder]

I have absolutley no idea if this will ever happen but...

 

Ed Sedar does a great job at first so...

 

1st base..WILLY RANDOLPH

3rd base..Ed Sedar

The first base coach doesn't really make decisions about trying for an extra base. He's there to help with the SB situation (so why do we bother having a first base coach?) and reminding runners what to do on various balls in play. The batter/runner usually makes their own decision about whether to run. Every once in a while the first base coach will help. The third base coach almost always makes the call as to whether to go home since the runner can not see the ball running towards 3rd. The third base coach must also be able to relay the coach's signs, doing it in such a way that the batters and runners know the message but no one else does.

[dadofandrew]

Al, Umps are correct on virtually every play at first base. The issue is more at the plate and at 2nd, and it appears that umps tend to error on the side of "if the ball beat them."

I know this is what they do, and it's lazy, inept and should be grounds for termination...if they could be terminated, which is the entire problem. The job they have is to make the proper call, not the easy one. As I point out often at Ramblings, they get almost every call right because the vast majority are routine, and easy. However, every close call is at best, just a guess, and most are wrong. The other night, when Counsell's hand beat the tag, I guessed he was safe solely because he was called out. It's usually that easy, as the umps are simply terrible. My goodness, they messed up a fair/foul call earlier this year. They've been so awful at HR's (because they don't even pretend to hustle, they just turn and guess), MLB had to change the century old way they call the game, as almost every night, ESPN would say, "look, another blown HR call". Earlier this year, they called a BOS HR foul, even though it landed 15-20 feet fair AND missed it on the replay. The guy who either caught the ball or had it bounce off of him just stood there as if to say, I'm in fair territory, how could it be foul? The announcers were speechless.

[TooLiveBrew]

However, every close call is at best, just a guess, and most are wrong.

 

If you're going to keep ranting on this, prove it.

[dadofandrew]

Watch the games. All 5 HR challenges have been overturned. The last two nights, a runner called out at home has been safe if you look at the tag versus foot/hand on the plate. They never say the 2B dropped the ball, even when it's obvious like it was a week or so ago, which Tom H correctly pointed out. An obvious fair/foul miss earlier this year, which the umpire looked at on replay and said, "I think it hit the edge of the line", which was funny, because chalk is white, and the cloud of dust was not. We've had several games in which the home plate ump may have well have flipped a coin, and then ejected guys by going after them. Dave Weathers got ejected the other night for saying, "What are you staring at?"

 

These clueless wonders get 4 weeks off in a 6 month season, and continually have excuses made for them because they're tired and worked so hard. Awful is awful. They should simply start over when the current contract is up, if they won't agree to be judged, you know they suck, and move on. There's no incentive for them to not suck, as they have a job for life. The effort is exactly what you'd expect, minimal, and often, none.

 

Why should the guy at the DMV hurry, and end up helping 10 more people a shift? There's no profit in it, so they don't care. Why are people shocked the men in blue see no reason to hustle, care, or be courteous to players and managers? If a player sucks, they aren't in the majors anymore. If an ump sucks, he'll be back next year, until he decides to retire to a fully funded pension. Why bother?

[Fatter than Joey]

If you're going to keep ranting on this, prove it.

 

I think he just went on ranting.