anyone worried about Gamel?

[BREWCREW5]

He has been brutal since going back down and had a horrible strikeout rate in the majors. Besides the obvious small sample issue, anyone concerned he might not be that cant miss prospect we think he is?

[DHonks]

nope. He's actually got me more excited now, as his defense in the big leagues was much better than advertised. I also loved how patient he was. The trick is that he needs to learn what to do with heaters on the inner half of the plate. I don't feel like looking it up, but I seem to think his first callup was far more productive than Jenkins' first.

[TooLiveBrew]

I agree with DHonks for the most part. I think his HR in St. Louis shows he knows what to do with fastballs in, but it's pretty hard to repeat that kind of swing when you don't get regular playing time.

 

I am so excited about the addition of Mat Gamel to this team. He will definitely (imo) be an improvement in terms of offense, and might wind up being a defensive improvement too. I can't trust his stats since being sent down as any kind of red flag. Getting sent down after not really having the confidence of your manager in the bigs can't do much for a guy's confidence.

[JohnBriggs12]

How can you not be concerned about a guy who's not all that young (24) for an "untouchable", who doesn't have 40 HR potential (more like 30) who's struck out 54 times in 158 at bats against AAA pitching? He's gotten regular playing time since going down and he's hit .118 with 18 K's in 34 AB (with no HR) against staffs depleted by the better pitchers having been called up by now. I don't buy the argument that his swing needs regular work. He's gotten over 300 plate appearances this season. It's not like he's been completely idle.

 

There's reason for real concern here. Even if it's just a slump, that he's capable of slumping so badly means he's likely to do it again and should be red flag.

[sargennm]

I have to concur with Briggs. He had a nice stretch in the Bigs, but once that whole in his swing was exposed - well - so was he. I'm very concerned about his long-term viability as being more than just a guy on this squad. If he could have got us anything beyond a half-season rental player this year, we should have traded him.

[TheCrew07]

He just turned 24... and now the mark of a good hitter is 40 HR potential? Who says he won't one day hit 40 HRs, how do we know? How many 40 HR hitters are there in MLB? Expectations need to be seriously tempered here. If you want to be concerned with the hole in his swing fine. It sounded to me in his audio interview when he came back that he had lost his confidence. I'm not going to defend the strike outs, but he's never K'd like this prior in his career.

[JohnBriggs12]

He just turned 24... and now the mark of a good hitter is 40 HR potential? Who says he won't one day hit 40 HRs, how do we know? How many 40 HR hitters are there in MLB? Expectations need to be seriously tempered here. If you want to be concerned with the hole in his swing fine. It sounded to me in his audio interview when he came back that he had lost his confidence. I'm not going to defend the strike outs, but he's never K'd like this prior in his career.

You misconstrued my point. My point is that you can live with a guy striking out every 3rd AB if he's got big time power because guys like that aren't going to hit for average (see Adam Dunn, Gorman Thomas etc). Gamel's supposed to be a .300 hitter with good power. He won't hit close to that against major league pitching if he's not even putting balls in play in AAA.

 

After seeing Gamel play, I revised my expectations for him downward to an "Adam LaRoche" type. LaRoche is notoriously streaky. He looks as good as anybody when he's locked in and as bad as anybody when he's not. Gamel will probably get himself straightened out, but that won't preclude him from future slumps and that doesn't say "untouchable" to me.

[TheCrew07]

You mean like how Braun and Fielder aren't prone to streaks?

[fondybrewfan]

I don't think he got nearly enough AB's in Milwaukee to level him a streaky hitter like LaRoche. He had about a one week stretch where he got consistent playing time, besides that he got some pinch hits and an occasional start but I hardly saw enough of him to draw any conclusions. Frankly I am going to put way more weight into is Pre-MLB AAA stats than his Post-MLB AAA stats because he completely lost confidence and completely lost his swing.

 

The guy isn't going to be a Braun, but I still think that he could easily be a .300 hitter with 20-25 home runs. Now maybe that isn't "untouchable" but players like that don't grow on trees.

[silversurferr]

A 25 year old LEFTY hitting third baseman that should hit .270 with 20 dingers? And who also looks like he can field the position? I will overlook the 140 strikeouts in his first 500 at bats.

[JJHardy7]

Why are we looking at such few at-bats? I'll give him at least another week before I look at it as a negative. I'm sure his confidence is done a bit, but remember you can't just magically start some games in a row and all the timing is back. That's why he should've never been on the bench anywhere to begin with.

[sveumrules]

well if gamel (.336/.407) is never gonna hit in the bigs maybe we can trade him for wieters, since he'll never hit in the bigs either, .319/.386 so far.

 

 

 

i guess the two questions i would have for the gamel doubters at this point are what were your expectaions for his first 100ish PAs? and why alter any expectaions you had previously based off such a small sample and fluky K rate in the first place?

[TheCrew07]

Here's the audio interview I was referring to.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

It looks like John Briggs is unhappy that we didn't sell Mat Gamel for Jerrod Washburn. That's my interpretation of his notion which I strongly disagree with. Gamel will be fine. When will people stop judging players shortly after their major league debuts? Patience is key as a GM of a Major League baseball team.

[Invader3K]

When will people stop judging players shortly after their major league debuts?

 

That's fine...but I've used the same logic and said you can't pencil all these youngsters into the lineup next year and expect the team to contend, as well.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I agree completely, Invader3K. I don't expect the team to contend too much until they can develop the fine lower level pitching prospects like Peralta, Odorizzi, Frederickson, Periard, and the list goes on. We could catch lightning in a bottle next year on some players and approach 90 wins, but lets face it, the best chance for this team to be in the playoffs lies in 2011 after dead money like Hall and Suppan come off the payroll and more of our young pitching can develop. Signing Prince Fielder to a long term deal would be the icing on the cake to my argument, but not sure if that's going to happen so a trade for another blue chip player(s) could be a nice consolation.

[Menace II Sobriety]

I have been thinking about the new influx of players for next year. Having Gamel, Escobar, and eariler in the season Cain, and potential starters for next season how could this team hope to contend. I do not see how 3 rookie starters will help this team unless they are G. Beckham. That is why I was hoping Gamel would get more seasoning this year to offset the other rookies.

[TooLiveBrew]

I would imagine your manager having almost literally zero faith in you might make you press a lot at the plate. Couple that with facing big-league pitching for the first time, with sporadic at-bats, and I can see why your K's might go up. People are waaaaay too critical of Gamel. Even without considering that he performed markedly better when starting at his normal position of 3B, his overall production is very much in line with what you might expect from a youngster adjusting to the big-leagues.

 

 

After seeing Gamel play, I revised my expectations for him downward to an "Adam LaRoche" type

 

Even if he only manages to be an 'Adam LaRoche type', he'll still be extremely valuable as a third baseman. Plus he will probably walk a lot more than LaRoche, and can handle LHP (unlike LaRoche). It's really not a good comparison imo, not that anything based off of such a small sample would be.

[BREWCREW5]

as of 08-04-2009, Gamel's last 10 games...

33AB's

2 hits

15 strikeouts.

.061 avg.

He is terrible right now.

[fondybrewfan]

Despite his crappiness what is the point of batting one of our top prospects in the #7 spot? I mean Joe Koshansky is hitting #5. They gotta get Gamel as many PAs as possible not move him down the order. I know all teams try to win to some extent but you would tihnk Melvin & company would want him at the top no matter what

[TooLiveBrew]

The Brewers really botched Gamel's development this season. He was ready to be called up, got called up, and should have played full-time. Now we have a dinged-up McGehee, a dinged-up Counsell, and a top prospect who's probably going to need a while to get his confidence back. Thanks a lot Doug & Ken!

 

In the hopes that re-hashing of arguments can be avoided... he performed very well in the limited chances Macha gave him to start at his natural position, and even with his woeful performance as a PH & DH, his overall numbers are still very much in line with what should be expected from a prospect adjusting to the bigs.

[Hate those Rodents]

When will people stop judging players shortly after their major league debuts?

 

That's fine...but I've used the same logic and said you can't pencil all these youngsters into the lineup next year and expect the team to contend, as well.

I disagree if you are replacing Kendall (Salome) and Hardy's (Escobar) production, as well as adding a bat as potent as Gamel's should be.

 

ETA - When you have Braun and Fielder (who at times are the only ones in the entire lineup producing anyway), we could make this work a lot easier than almost any team in baseball.

[jjfanec]

That's fine...but I've used the same logic and said you can't pencil all these youngsters into the lineup next year and expect the team to contend, as well.

I disagree if you are replacing Kendall (Salome) and Hardy's (Escobar) production, as well as adding a bat as potent as Gamel's should be.

 

ETA - When you have Braun and Fielder (who at times are the only ones in the entire lineup producing anyway), we could make this work a lot easier than almost any team in baseball.

Angel Salome has an OPS of .710 in AAA right now. He may be a better hitter than Kendall whose OPS is just horrible, but his defense is not major league ready according to Money. I really think next years Brewers have a stop gap catcher as we wait to see if Salome's defense gets better and if Lucroy can get his OPS back in the .800 plus area.

 

Back to the question if we are worried about Gamel, I am going to say that I am. He struck out more than I expected in the pros and now he is striking out like crazy in AAA. Hopefully he can end his season well so that he has confidence going into Spring Training next year.

[endaround]

Lucroy has. Check what Lucroy has done for the last two months after his bad start. He deserves promotion, its just what to do with Salome.

[JohnBriggs12]

It looks like John Briggs is unhappy that we didn't sell Mat Gamel for Jerrod Washburn. That's my interpretation of his notion which I strongly disagree with. Gamel will be fine. When will people stop judging players shortly after their major league debuts? Patience is key as a GM of a Major League baseball team.

I never suggested that deal so again TWR you have put words in my mouth.