Brewers acquire CF Corey Patterson [Called up 9/4 - see reply 128ish]

[sheethead]

for the first time in his career I can match every great play with an equally bad one this year.

I can almost guarantee that you can't.

I have 2 muffs to one good over the shoulder play last night alone. I would almost certainly guarantee that I can

 

The guy is one of the top 6 or 7 guys in the game at CF, he puts up those numbers year after year while playing good D.

 

I would argue the following are better (either by skill or value - in no particular order):

Carlos Beltran

Tori Hunter

Matt Kemp

Shane Vicorino

Koske Fukudome (pains me to say)

Andrew McCutchen

Adam Jones

Cody Ross (I like hits = RBI on this one)

 

I got Cameron in this group:

Cameron

Granderson

Rowand

Sizemore

McLouth

 

So I would rate Cameron as #9 of all CFers in the league. Is that worthy of $10-12 million per year? Maybe, but it shouldn't be. 7:45PM - Caught looking... again.

[brewdude15]

How is Fukudome and McCutchen better than Cameron?

[greeg35]

I have 2 muffs to one good over the shoulder play last night alone.

I believe you mentioned the whole year. He has made a lot of great plays throughout the year mostly going back on balls in the alley. He routinely makes great plays look really easy. While he has dropped off from his prime, his defense is generally taken for granted.

 

Either way I doubt either of us is going to go back and count so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[sheethead]

How is Fukudome and McCutchen better than Cameron?

(age)

Fukudome (32) - .278/.391/.468/.859

McCutchen (22) - .287/.359/.476/.835

Cameron (36) - .256/.358/.451/.809

 

Cameron is slightly better than Fukudome on defense, but worse than McCutchen.

[endaround]

If by slightly you mean 1.5 wins better than Fukudome, yes.

[sheethead]

Is that career or this year? With aging vets, I don't like looking at career numbers (even if Fukudome is only 3.5 years younger).

[endaround]

That would be this year. Fukudome is a 1/2-3/4 a win below average in CF while Cameron has been the same above average.

[FVBrewerFan]

Not that 1.5 wins can be proven without subjectivley using data. Sorry, not even aimed at you end, I just think win shares is a shaky stat, and potentially dangerous when used in evaluation. Like most stats, it does have some meaning. Something interesting to look at, but it's a problem when treated as gospel.

[sheethead]

Its starting to get abused and overused. I don't see how it takes into account when a player turns a single into a triple with a poor decision, or an out into a double when a poor read is made off the bat. Does Braun get an automatic -1.0 wins for yesterday's defense?

[rluzinski]

It's not win shares and if you want to criticise it, shouldn't you familiarize youself with tit's methodology first? There's plenty about the methodology that can be argued against. Go to fangraphs.com and learn about it. Make an honest effort to objectively evaluate it. And don't go into it looking to simply validate what you think you already know. Otherwise, it's a waste of time.

[sheethead]

There's plenty about the methodology that can be argued against.

 

Then it would appear to me both a waste of time arguing with those who use it as their main argument for one player over the other, and a complete waste of time to master its methodology in the first place.

[Oldcity]

You can use any defensive stat you want then, and Cameron will be well ahead of Fukudome.

[Ennder]

If the discussion is going to boil down to Fukudome is better because I say he is then there really isn't anything to discuss. If you can't use the plethora of stats available to argue the merits of one player or another then I'm not really sure what the point of discussing it is. This is why I have no interest in discussing football players as an example, the stats are so subjective as to be almost useless so the discussions never get anywhere.

[greeg35]

But it makes the argument so much easier. To be right all I have to do is say Cameron is better than Fukodome LOUDER and/or more often.

[logan82]

No, all you have to do is look at the stats that show Cameron is better.

[crewcrazy]

But it makes the argument so much easier. To be right all I have to do is say Cameron is better than Fukodome LOUDER and/or more often.

There are ways to make it known you disagree with a point of view without attacking it. Comments like this tend to take threads way off topic and eventually get them locked, and could be considered a violation of the Fan Forum Etiquette's rules about condescension and personal attacks. Let's try to keep this topic about Corey Patterson, and not attack the views of others we might not agree with.

[sheethead]

No, all you have to do is look at the stats that show Cameron is better.

I am looking at offensive and defensive stats, as well as age and how much is left in the tank. I would rather have Fukudome. If you would rather have Cameron that's fine and I can respect that. But to say that Cameron is CLEARLY better than Fukudome is off base and can only be justified by looking at stats that support your opinion.

[RockCoCougars]

I don't care what the stats say, I'll take McCutchen ahead of Cameron right now, even at $10 million. That kid is a player. Back to reality, I think making due with Gerut and Patterson will do for next season. Cameron's money will be needed for pitching.

 

Would Lopez be a complete disaster in center? A Weeks, Lopez, Braun, Fielder lineup sounds pretty good....

[Invader3K]

I would love to see them retain Lopez at this point and maybe try Weeks in center. I believe he played there in the past.

[BrewCrewForever]

I would love to see them retain Lopez at this point and maybe try Weeks in center. I believe he played there in the past.

I like the idea, I just don't see it happening. I think they really like the progress Weeks made at 2B and don't want that to all be for nothing. I say let Cameron walk and maybe start Patterson in CF next season as a stop gap until Cain is ready in 2011.

[DuWayne Steurer]

If Corey Patterson is getting regular playing time (anything more than 300 PA's) then it's obvious we're punting the season. I don't give a rip what he's doing in a small sample in AAA, the guy has a career OBP of .291. He'd be one of the 5 worst offensive regulars in the league. I will leave the room when he bats if I'm watching the game on tv. Even taking defense into account, he's subpar at his absolute best. And taking recent history into account, that .238 OBP in 2008 was terrific. You can get that out of most pitchers.

 

I'm honestly shocked that any view him as a viable stop gap, if even only for one year.

[BrewCrewForever]

I'm only saying for one year, if there is no other viable cheap option. I like Cameron but I don't want to pay him $10 mill again.

[trwi7]

Gerut is a cheap and much better option than Patterson.

[BrewCrewForever]

Gerut is a cheap and much better option than Patterson.

True, I actually forgot about him. And he has hit a lot better as of late. He could be a nice 1 year stop gap.

[TooLiveBrew]

Patterson imo was only signed to fill a spot at AAA. I really don't think we need to worry about him seeing significant PA in 2010.