Melvin/Attanasio lessons learned from Suppan/Hall

[TheCrew07]

The idea in itself behind the Hall signing wasn't bad, it's just that he had never performed at that level at any point in his career prior to '05 and '06. He also seemed to be guy the team was least committed to, instead of moving him out to CF he would have been pretty valuable as a trade piece. However he was a fairly popular player in Milwaukee, and again, Melvin hasn't demonstrated in the past that he'd aggressively move for pitching. In my opinion a better move would have been locking up Hardy mid-season in 2007, especially since Hall always seemed to be the odd guy out when the team was making roster decisions. I also would have offered Fielder a long-term deal after 2006.

 

I realize of course, that I've always come down on the Hardy side of the fence and have never really liked Hall, but it's clear to me that the Brewers thought Hall had value, but they weren't committed to him at a defensive position. If I were Melvin I probably would have planned on Weeks and Fielder being my eventual core as they were moving up, but after 2006 (JJ's injury season and Weeks' first wrist injury) I would have been thinking Fielder + ? so when JJ exploded in 2007 he would have been my other guy. Once I was sure JJ was going to recover I would have immediately moved Hall and sold high on Billy, but that's just how I operate when I manage franchises in games, like OOTP for example, I believe in pitching first.

 

I'm always wheeling and dealing for pitching... anytime a player busts out who's not "in my plans", he's moved for pitching. What do I do with all the pitching? I spin it back into hitting as they approach FA... I seem to need 8 starting pitchers to make it through a season anyway so the extra pitching never hurts. I realize it's just a video game, but that's the approach I take to roster management... and I have feeling that's how I'd work it if I had the opportunity in real life. Melvin is pretty conservative, he only moves a valuable piece when he has to due to FA or a player being blocked. I sincerely hope he'll change his tact some look to acquire some younger pitching, instead of buying rentals and signing FA pitchers, there's just not good value in those moves.

[Teatoe993]

Why is it so hard for people to understand that Melvin DID offer Fielder a long term deal? It is not Melvin's fault that Boras is the greediest human alive.

[TheCrew07]

Why is it so hard for people to understand that Melvin DID offer Fielder a long term deal? It is not Melvin's fault that Boras is the greediest human alive.

We do understand... why aren't you considering the difference in timing and salary the player was making? There are finite windows in play here.

[Invader3K]

He had been in the majors for what, two seasons when they offered him a long term deal? Are they supposed to lock up every blue chip rookie long term and hope they don't get burned too often?

 

I'm not sure Boras would have let him sign long term even then.

[TheCrew07]

He had been in the majors for what, two seasons when they offered him a long term deal? Are they supposed to lock up every blue chip rookie long term and hope they don't get burned too often?

 

I'm not sure Boras would have let him sign long term even then.

I guess you didn't read or missed the part about Fielder and Weeks, then Fielder +? I wasn't being extremist, what's so outrageous about having 3-4 position players signed to Braunesque type deals? I would like Yo locked up immediately as well. I'd rather pay those players than any reliever for 1.5 WAR, or Suppan for negative WAR...

[endaround]

How was Hardy going to agree to a deal? His first year he was terrible, his second year was missed due to injury and so he broke out his last minimum year. He was already guaranteed arby money going forward at that point there is little incentive for position players to sign long term.

[Invader3K]

What happens if a couple of those three or four guys you sign to big contracts don't pan out? That of course ignores the fact that "Braunesque" deals just don't happen that often, period.

[TheCrew07]

That's why important to identify your players... Fielder was going hit, the same way Braun was going to hit, the same way Gamel is going to hit. I would have been looking to lock up 2 of the original wave, Braun made a ton of sense, and Yo makes a ton of sense. Going forward I hope they offer Gamel a deal, and again I hope they offer Yo. Beyond them looking ahead I'm not sure who I'd lock up, I'm not sure any of those guys will be special, but they'll be above average, players like Cain, Gindl, and Green. If Parra begins approaching his potential I hope they'd lock him up as well.

 

It's the easiest way to control cost and extend a player's stay will the organization. If those things don't interest you that's fine, but that's how I feel about it. You seem to be taking it like I'm attacking Melvin and that's not my intention, I would would rather tweak the way he does things. Just like in the fire Melvin thread, I think he's above average, but he needs to change his approach to FA and pitching or we're always going to struggle to get over the top.

 

I don't know if Hardy would have signed in 2007, but I would have offered and made it public.. he had no track record and has had some pretty crappy luck with injuries, he might have jumped at the long-term security. Additionally for the Brewers it would have made sense to reclaim a year of lost service time with him.

[danzig6767]

I can't go back in retrospect and bash Melvin for the Hall signing, i supported it and thought it was a fair contract. Suppan's signing i didn't like then and obviously don't like it now. Giving big long term money to socalled savy veteran pitchers with very mediocre stuff strikes me as the highest chance for that contract ending up being an albatross.

[joepepsi]

The idea in itself behind the Hall signing wasn't bad, it's just that he had never performed at that level at any point in his career prior to '05 and '06. He also seemed to be guy the team was least committed to, instead of moving him out to CF he would have been pretty valuable as a trade piece....

I really like your entire post here. Looking back the best move would have been to trade Hall for a top pitching prospect when his value was highest. Another possibility would be trading Weeks for a similarly developed pitcher and moving Hall to 2nd.

 

Either of those moves involved much more risk though. It also would have seriously challenged fan loyalty. Brewer fans had grown accustomed to seeing players traded once they became expensive in the previous several years. Trading Hall would have looked terribly Bando-esque at the time.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Briefly regarding Suppan, he was an average pitcher who wasn't going to improve, and the Brewers gave him the largest contract in their history at the time...simply not a good move for a small market team no matter how much they needed pitching.

 

I think the lesson learned on Bill Hall is that players of his caliber should never have arby years bought out in contract extensions - exactly why I'm glad Corey Hart didn't accept the Brewers' offer.

 

there's definitely a need for those type of deals with small market ballclubs, but they should only be offered when it comes to trying to hold onto a franchise-type player (see Ben Sheets initial extension, Braun, and the initial offer Fielder/Boras rejected). Keeping homegrown talent around does help a small market team, but if the scouting department does its job there should always be cheaper alternatives waiting in the wings to fill the roles average to good major leaguers approaching free agency fill on the team. Giving away too many contract extensions to developing players runs the risk of losing roster flexibility, blocking more talented prospects from getting legit major league opportunities when they're ready, and creating untradeable players/contracts should their performance slip (as many younger players do once the league learns all their strengths/weaknesses).

 

Compare Hall to Hart/Hardy right now - Hall and his contract looks completely untradeable and will continue to keep Gamel from getting the everyday 3B job as long as he's on the roster. Hardy and Hart are decent major leaguers (Hardy's definitely better than that, but having a down year offensively) who still will have decent trade value from this point going forward.

 

I think that above all else, small market clubs need to have a huge amount of roster flexibility in order to consistently contend - trying to lock in any and all position players to contract extensions decreases flexibility and limits what a GM can do to improve the ballclub after one of those deals doesn't pan out.

[Roderick]

The idea in itself behind the Hall signing wasn't bad, it's just that he had never performed at that level at any point in his career prior to '05 and '06. He also seemed to be guy the team was least committed to, instead of moving him out to CF he would have been pretty valuable as a trade piece....

I really like your entire post here. Looking back the best move would have been to trade Hall for

Is it my imagination, or wasn't the talk back then that you couldn't trade Hall because he had just signed a home-town discount deal (yes, I thought the deal was considered this at the time) and to trade him right away would have made it harder for the Brewers to get any more such deals from future players. Maybe it is just the old-timers disease implanting these memories.

[joepepsi]

You're memory is probably right, Roderick. As I said, had Doug traded Hall at the time it would have looked like a Pirates type move, trading every player once they get good.

[MJLiverock]

You're memory is probably right, Roderick. As I said, had Doug traded Hall at the time it would have looked like a Pirates type move, trading every player once they get good.

I don't think it looks like a dump at all. I viewed more like TheCrew stated and the team could easily have said it that way. Hall wasn't viewed as part of the core of IFers of Braun, Hardy, Weeks, and Fielder, he was the extra piece that had value and was most likely selling high. He had a good 05 when protected against RHers and had a great 06 that exceeded everything he had ever shown before. Why not take advantage of that and fill a hole where there wasn't a surplus like C, CF, or pitching? Instead of trying to find a position for Hall like moving him to CF why not trade him to a team that needed a SS or 2B who had an extra CF? I don't think anyone is say the team should have dumped Hall, it is more about dealing from your strenghts to improve your weaknesses and at the time the Brewers had an abundnce of young talent infielders with very little on the horizon for catching, CF, or pitching, you can basically never have too much pitching because it is so easy to trade it for hitting.

 

A team can't constantly be afraid of trading away a good player- it is the only way to get a good player in return. Melvin did a good job of that with LaPorta, a guy who didn't really have a postition in Milwaukee in the near term so he spun him out to improve a glaring weakness.