Why is Ken Macha getting a free pass?

[tigerbrew]

It's a little too early to compare Macha to Ned, IMO. Ken's been on the job since November. Yost presided over three mega, post-ASB meltdowns. I can cut Macha some slack for now, but color me unimpressed.

Totally agree. Yost truly deserved to be fired, I believe that we would not have made the playoffs last year if Yost had remained. I felt that Sveum deserved to manage the team this year and was disappointed that DM did not offer him the job. But DM chose Macha instead and I think it is fair to give Macha more time, he has not lead this team for a full season yet.

 

Macha has a 2 year gauranteed contract ending 2010, if he does not produce the desired results by next season, we can get a new manager when his contract is over.

[logan82]

tigerbrew wrote:

Macha has a 2 year gauranteed contract ending 2010, if he does not produce the desired results by next season, we can get a new manager when his contract is over.

I think there is almost no way Macha comes back next year without an extension.

[brewcrew779]

Diskono[/b]]

he did not do it tonight by starting Villy over Dillard.

Still think this is true? At least Villanueva threw strikes.

He sure did and 2 of them found their way over the wall. So another 5 earned runs in 4IP, thats enough of a sample size to keep him on the bench. You cant depend on Villy for squat, but Macha insists on using him. Everytime Villy takes the mound you kow its going to be bad. Over the last year and a half thats 83 ER in 152 IP, good enough for a 5.46 ERA. If I'm a stat man like Macha, that's good enough to tell me he is garbage. Macha might as well throw his stat system out to window at this point because its not working.

[JUNT4twan]

Why does it seem that just a few understand that this team lost two all-star pitchers from their rotation? It's not hard to understand why they're struggling. An average fan should understand that a team that BARELY sneaked into the playoffs last year, have the same players, minus two GAPING holes in the starting rotation, have more potential for declination than stagnation, let alone improvement.

 

While Macha certainly hasn't shown he's a magic-maker, he certainly doesn't qualify for being axed. In the end, it's very simple to see what the Brewer's problems are, and how they occurred. The correlation and layout couldn't be more blatant.

[TooLiveBrew]

If I'm a stat man like Macha, that's good enough to tell me he is garbage

 

Actually, if you are a stat man, you recognize that 152 IP is still a small sample. Not sure of the appropriate adjective for 4 -- 'bordering on the non-existant'?

 

Hey, Villy had 3 scoreless innings tonight, that's enough of a sample to tell me he's an ace.

 

 

Why does it seem that just a few understand that this team lost two all-star pitchers from their rotation? It's not hard to understand why they're struggling.

 

I have been asking myself the same question lately.

[Eileen Wright]

Why does it seem that just a few understand that this team lost two all-star pitchers from their rotation?

I don't believe this to be really true. Sheets and CC never really pitched together. Last year, combined, they basically equalled one player of service time. Plus, we gained a full season (fingers crossed ) of Yo this year which we didn't have last year, and many people believed Yo would have been an All-Star this year if his spot in the rotation did not come up the way it did. Plus, we got to add an All Star closer this year, which we had nothing close to last year.

I believe everything has evened out in that respect from last year to this year.

[DHonks]

I don't believe this to be really true. Sheets and CC never really pitched together. Last year, combined, they basically equalled one player of service time.

 

Actually, they were together, but we all were noticing Sheets was not the same after the all-star break. In fact, I heard a rumor his arm was hurting in late June which was when his numbers started to slip. Still, they were together in the rotation for roughly 5 weeks. However, we really lost 5 months of an allstar pitcher in Sheets and 3 months of an allstar pitcher in Sabathia. At the same time, This year we've had 4 months of an allstar pitcher in Yo (he would have been an allstar if he hadn't pitched the Sunday before the game).

 

Go back about 10 days and you'd have roughly the same amount of games played as last year when we acquired Sabathia. The difference in the roster is hardly noticeable, yet the result was roughly 7 or 8 games difference. And I hate all this stuff about "Macha the stats guy," because Ned quoted stats on a daily basis. Macha has not played the percentages in close games. If Attanasio fired Yost for his team underachieving, Attanasio should have Macha canned tonight. Ned's team looked great last year until the epic slide in September. Macha's team (the same team!) has looked awful for most of this season, save a 4 week stretch from late April through late May.

[Baldkin]

The starting pitching this year has not been nearly as good as it was last season. Not even remotely close.

Right now the team ERA is 14th in the league. Last year it was SECOND.

 

Pre-All star game last year the team was 7th in ERA, at 4.09. This year they were 13th, at 4.57.

 

Can you really blame Macha for that?

[Bring Back the Stein]

As for the substantive questions, Macha can do little with a rotation that's bunk and vets that are batting below their career averages (other than where they hit). I just don't feel this season, and I certainly don't want to trade the farm for the puncher's chance. Therefore, when I'm honest with myself, I'd rather go to this gangrenous end with the Aw-Shucks clear-eyed dignity of Macha than some of the other options. He's our morphine.

[Eileen Wright]

The starting pitching this year has not been nearly as good as it was last season. Not even remotely close.

Right now the team ERA is 14th in the league. Last year it was SECOND.

 

Can you really blame Macha for that?

And Bring Back The Stein Wrote: "As for the substantive questions, Macha can do little with a rotation that's bunk and vets that are batting below their career averages (other than where they hit)."

 

This goes back to another beef I have with Macha and that I already posted about: the selections of coaches Macha made with his staff. If firing Yost was because he couldn't get us to the next level, then why did Macha basically keep and/or promote the high majority of Yost's staff? These players should be progressing and not regressing. I truly feel the coaches are not of much help, and Macha is to blame for selecting them on his staff.

[Jay Zahn]

Why does it seem that just a few understand that this team lost two all-star pitchers from their rotation?

I don't believe this to be really true. Sheets and CC never really pitched together. Last year, combined, they basically equalled one player of service time. Plus, we gained a full season (fingers crossed ) of Yo this year which we didn't have last year, and many people believed Yo would have been an All-Star this year if his spot in the rotation did not come up the way it did. Plus, we got to add an All Star closer this year, which we had nothing close to last year.

I believe everything has evened out in that respect from last year to this year.

 

I know it seems like Sheets and CC never pitched together, but Sheets actually did make 31 starts last year and CC 17. That's more than one player, more like one and a half.

 

Gallardo has essentially replaced Sheets with no difference in value. CC was not going to go 11-2 with a 1.65 ERA again anyway. So in that case we were bound to get some falloff.

The short relievers are not the problem. Lots of turnover from 2008 to 2009, but the performance is as good or better there than 2008. The Brewers haven't lost a ton of games because of Stetter or Hoffman or those guys.

The problem is that Suppan's been a disappointment, AND Parra's been a disappointment, AND Bush's been a disappointment, AND Looper's been a disappointment, AND Villanueva's been a disappointment, AND McClung's been a disappointment. Not by the standard of CC, but by their own standard. They've all underachieved to varying degrees. I'm guessing Castro's already lost his job for next year because of this.

The hitters are more of a mixed bag. Again, going by prior stats, why would you expect Hardy would be this bad? I would have expected Hart to bounce back a bit. He's held his level, mainly by taking more walks, but I still consider his season a disappointment. Even Bill Hall - he's only 29. He plays like he's 34. It's hard to get significantly worse three years running.

Overall the talent hasn't performed up to its prior record. They've underachieved by their own standard. As for Macha, I will credit him for getting the team OBP up. I will blame him for turning the Brewers into a team that is incapable of stealing a base and of not keeping his bench players fresh. Overall I'd give him a D, realizing that he is not to blame for everything. But the Brewers need to show some sign of life over the rest of the season or he will be fired.

 

 

[TooLiveBrew]

These players should be progressing and not regressing. I truly feel the coaches are not of much help, and Macha is to blame for selecting them on his staff.

 

Which players are you talking about? I can think of Hardy & maybe Parra (though I don't think you can be sure with Manny yet). McGehee is one notable that appears to have progressed, but just about every other young player has progressed or performed roughly as expected.

 

The reason I think Macha kept Castro & Sveum is that they are capable coaches who already knew the core players very well, and Macha obviously had zero familiarity with the team.

[danzig6767]

I don't have any really major issues with Macha outside of letting Gallardo throw more pitches in a few games than i'm comfortable with.

 

Overall i think Macha has done a good job handling the bullpen. Go to any baseball forum and fans complain about how the manager uses the bullpen, most fans IMO always think they would do better and that all managers are clueless in that regard. Find a forum of a MLB baseball team where the fans aren't complaining about how the manager uses the bullpen?

 

His lineup choices here and there i haven't always agreed with, especially batting Kendall leadoff, but many fans put to much importance in where hitters bat in the order compared to who the hitters are.

 

The by far and away reason that the Brewers are worse this year is that the starting rotation has pitched poorly overall and teams almost never play playoff caliber baseball when their starting rotation performs like crap, regardless who the manager is. This is why Toronto is asking for the moon for Hallady, you need good starting pitching to be a good baseball team unless you have just some silly good offense to cover for the poor pitching. Plus, bad starting pitching burns out bullpens, it's a plague with ripple effects.

[tigerbrew]

tigerbrew wrote:

Macha has a 2 year gauranteed contract ending 2010, if he does not produce the desired results by next season, we can get a new manager when his contract is over.

I think there is almost no way Macha comes back next year without an extension.

Personally, I do not subscribe to the "lame duck" theory in this context. It seems to me much more like an excuse by GMs to give themselves or their selected managers a form of golden parachute. I find that the protrayed "effects" of a manager in his contract year are way overblown and not justified. This "lame duck" theory is the reason why the Brewers are still paying Yost $1.1M this year.

[Eileen Wright]

These players should be progressing and not regressing. I truly feel the coaches are not of much help, and Macha is to blame for selecting them on his staff.

 

Which players are you talking about? I can think of Hardy & maybe Parra (though I don't think you can be sure with Manny yet).

Here are the players I am referring to:

 

JJ Hardy (.235 AVG., .300OBP, 11HR, 44 RBI in at least 373 plate appearances)

Corey Hart (.259 AVG., .332 OBP., 11HR, 39 RBI in at least 379 plate appearances)

Bill Hall (.202 AVG., .264 OBP., 5 HR, 20 RBI in 215 plate appearances)

Manny Parra (4-8, 6.42 ERA)

Dave Bush (3-4, 5.67 ERA)

Seth McClung (3-3, 5.03 ERA)

 

 

These are way too many players to be regressing especially when they are at the ages where they should be progressing. An argument could be made that, besides McClung, that the other 5 players I listed (along with Fielder, Yo, and Braun) were the key pieces of our team for years to come.

[TooLiveBrew]

Corey Hart has played well within reasonable expectations, and has had good results of late. "Way too many players?" I think if you looked around the league you'd find a comparable number of guys on most teams. The notion that Sveum & Castro have anything to do with this imho is just a reflection of the Brewers losing quite a few games of late. But I guess if you only focus on the negative, it's easy to find scapegoats.

 

Seriously... Bill Hall, a "key [piece] of the team for years to come?"

 

Dave Bush's stats from a few starts don't tell us anything that's close to being as reliable as his career stats.

 

Hardy has had a down year at the plate so far... it happens, even to good players.

 

Parra struggled out of the gates, but has also looked very good at times this year. Basically par for the course with young/growing SP.

 

 

At this point, I miss the vent thread. If it could be made into a place where people are allowed to just make these kinds of venting posts without allowing others to correct erroneous assertions, it would seem preferable to the same types of comments surfacing in numerous other threads. I mean, we actually have a thread claiming that if Jack Z. were back in the role of scouting director, the problems wouldn't exist. Seriously?

[Fatter than Joey]

Why does it seem that just a few understand that this team lost two all-star pitchers from their rotation? It's not hard to understand why they're struggling.

 

I have been asking myself the same question lately.

 

Three things:

 

1. Yo probably for the most part, has probably replaced Sheets. I think everyone understands that CC's performance in 2008, was unrepeatable -- even by himself -- that said, we really didn't need our "ace" to replicate a 1.65 ERA over 17 starts. If you think about it, if your team averages 4 runs a game, how many more wins does a 2.65 pitcher win over a 1.65 pitcher.

 

2. Bush and Parra - have really fell far from their projections, and Suppan and Looper have as well to a lesser degree. 2009 is really not about missing two spots in the rotation, it really is about all 5 spots slipping.

 

3. I think the other variable in our rotation is that in 2008, besides Sheets, Yo, CC, Bush, Suppan & Parra -- the only Brewers to start games in 2008 were CV and McClung -- while neither McClung or CV are super, they are certainly servicable in a pinch -- In 2009 we have already had 5 starts by Mike Burns, and will probably see some more starts if not by Burns, someone of his caliber.

 

In short 2009 is not entirely about "2008Brewers rotation - Sheets - CC = crap" -- our rotation has really slipped on a lot of fronts.

[Invader3K]

Exactly. A good summary, FtJ.

 

I guess I still wonder if Melvin really thought the rotation was going to be as good as last year and was just being willfully naive, or he was just really banking on being able to trade for someone like Jake Peavy or that caliber mid-season?

[Fatter than Joey]

I guess I still wonder if Melvin really thought the rotation was going to be as good as last year and was just being willfully naive, or he was just really banking on being able to trade for someone like Jake Peavy or that caliber mid-season?

 

In 2008 when CV and Bush struggled -- McClung was able to save the day with some decent starts -- If DM thought McClung would replicate what he did in 2008 this year, DM probably made a mistake.

 

I think that GMs have to prepare for the inevitability of injuries to the rotation -- certainly there are some injuries that can knock a team out of contention, but every GM is going to have some nicks and bruises to the starters.

 

The trade for a stud/comp picks, is a pretty risky game compared to organizational depth.

[JUNT4twan]

1. Yo probably for the most part, has probably replaced Sheets. I think everyone understands that CC's performance in 2008, was unrepeatable -- even by himself -- that said, we really didn't need our "ace" to replicate a 1.65 ERA over 17 starts. If you think about it, if your team averages 4 runs a game, how many more wins does a 2.65 pitcher win over a 1.65 pitcher.

 

Really? Well here's four games that were won by one run when CC was on the mound.

 

-Jul 13 CINW 3-2

-Aug 24 PITW 4-3

-Sep 5 SDW 3-2

-Sep 10 CINW 4-3

 

So, had we had a pitcher in these games with a ERA of one point higher, then these most likely would be losses. In fact, I am 90% sure that at least one out of the four would've been lost, therefore the Brewers left out of the playoffs. There were a few other games that were won by 2 runs. So, given our bullpen last year, do you really think that they would've been able to hold out all those games? I wouldn't even compare Yo to CC yet, let alone CC and Benny combined, shortened years or not. Crazy talk.

[Diskono]

How many games did we win by many runs when Sabathia pitched? You really have to take the average of all of those, its impossible to predict the scores of individual games.

[JUNT4twan]

No doubt, but believe it or not, one whole earned-run more can make a world of difference over half of a season, especially when the team barely sneaked into the playoffs after the final game.

[Fatter than Joey]

So, had we had a pitcher in these games with a ERA of one point higher, then these most likely would be losses.

 

That really wasn't my point -- but even in the rigid example you make -- a 2.65 era pitcher wins 2 of those games.

 

In fact, I am 90% sure that at least one out of the four would've been lost, therefore the Brewers left out of the playoffs.

 

No one has claimed that CC was non-essential to make the playoffs.

 

I wouldn't even compare Yo to CC yet

 

I did not do this.

 

let alone CC and Benny combined, shortened years or not.

 

I did not do this either.

[Eileen Wright]

Corey Hart has played well within reasonable expectations, and has had good results of late.

Seriously... Bill Hall, a "key [piece] of the team for years to come?"

Dave Bush's stats from a few starts don't tell us anything that's close to being as reliable as his career stats.

Hardy has had a down year at the plate so far... it happens, even to good players.

Parra struggled out of the gates, but has also looked very good at times this year. Basically par for the course with young/growing SP.

At this point, I miss the vent thread.

 

 

1. I don't think Corey Hart having a .259 batting average, 11 HR, 39 RBI, and only 7 steals is hardly playing "well within reasonable expectations", especially coming after an All Star season and playing full time in the league for the prior two years.

2. Bill Hall was a key piece of our team two years ago. Remember, Bill Hall was the first player to receive a long term contract, even before Braun and Prince. Bill Hall has been regressing ever since, under mostly the same coaches. It could be because he sucks though. In fact, it probably is.

3. Dave Bush has been in 14 games and has started in 13 of them. Typically you are satisfied if a pitcher can give you 30 starts a year. Therefore, what we have here is legitimately half of a season, hardly a "few starts".

 

4. Hardy has had a down year. He has shown regression this year, just like the other five players I listed. Too many players are regressing under this staff.

 

5. Marry Parra. Having a record of 4-8, a 6.42 ERA, and being sent down to the minors is hardly "par for the course with young/growing SP." If that is par for the course, I would golf on that course every day and be Tiger Woods.

 

6. I did not create this thread to be a "vent thread". I created it to state why I think Macha has to shoulder the majority of the blame for this year and try to get an understanding why he has mostly been given a free pass by many fans while last year it was basically all of the manager's fault.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

I didn't mean that this thread was annoying. I think it's great to have a thread on the manager. My comment just after you stopped the quote of my post in your most recent one clearly explains that.

 

I am not going to change your mind. We completely disagree on Hart, Parra (I know Ennder posted in another thread a long, long list of young talented SP that have struggled this year. It really is par for the course), Bush, & Hardy. I also heartily disagree that Bill Hall is an important part of the team's future. I think he will be jettisoned in the offseason.