Why Do Some Want to Fire Melvin?

[lcbj68c]

I guess that's why I like an "outside the box" method perhaps. Delmon Young was traded because of his personal issues. He's hardly a Ryan Braun. At what point then does DM get replaced? How long does his inability to attract free agents and build a competent pitching staff under the same budget go without excuses? Warm weather or not, it's a dome for crying out loud and you don't have to live here from Oct through April. My wife says I have to quit arguing now and take a break.

[Paulus88]

Correct...in addition to filling the ace's with free agency...it's a package deal. Be good at both and spend wisely.

I unequivocally agree with that approach. But why then does Melvin have to be fired? Because our draft picks got injured and he couldn't convince an ace free agent to come here? That sets a pretty high bar.

[DHonks]

I have no problem with Melvin. My issue is with Macha's ineptitude. It makes me yearn for the days of Garner or Yost. I see 0% chance of Macha being extended for a 3rd season

[zzzmanwitz]

I guess that's why I like an "outside the box" method perhaps. Delmon Young was traded because of his personal issues. He's hardly a Ryan Braun. At what point then does DM get replaced? How long does his inability to attract free agents and build a competent pitching staff under the same budget go without excuses? Warm weather or not, it's a dome for crying out loud and you don't have to live here from Oct through April. My wife says I have to quit arguing now and take a break.

 

Well... I guess I win! Valid effort though. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[lcbj68c]

You can win until 2020 when the same issues continue to manifest year after year. I then shall restart said argument. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Fatter than Joey]

A) Jack Z is responsible for all of our success, but Melvin is to blame for our lack of pitching.

 

Here is how I view this situation -- DM is looking for a certain type player, it was JZ's job to find that type of player -- that is to say JZ took his direction from DM. I believe DM overvalued hitting, and undervalued pitching and defense. His tenure in Texas indicates that as well. I think JZ made DM look pretty good, had DM pointed JZ in another direction, perhaps we'd have some pitching depth in our organization.

 

C) He traded Nelson Cruz... LOOK AT HIM NOW!!! Tony Gwynn Jr. is doing awesome and Gerut is doing nothing!

 

My problem with DM's trading strategy, is that it seems to me he has never traded a player when their stock was at a high point. It seems we are always stuck with players that have devalued, after their peak has long since passed, and we end up giving them ABs in hopes they regain their value.

 

I really liked how the Reds moved Josh Hamilton -- they picked him off the heap -- benefited from his resurgence, and then traded him when they could get the most from it.

 

D) He didn't fire Yost soon enough.

Managers MAYBE account for a win or two a year. They just don't have that big of an impact.

 

2 things:

 

1.) Managers do have an impact -- studies indicate a good manager can net a team 2-3 wins, and a bad one can lose a team 2-3 games.

2.) Two games a year is Huge -- especially a team in the 80-85 win range. We won the WC last year by a game. There are 4 teams in our division this year within 2 games. Does anyone really want to handicap our team by two wins this year, in any sort of fashion?

[Fatter than Joey]

I have no problem with Melvin. My issue is with Macha's ineptitude. It makes me yearn for the days of Garner or Yost. I see 0% chance of Macha being extended for a 3rd season

 

I think Macha is a bigger problem as well, I just would hate to waste another year with Macha, and I am not convinced after Yost and Macha, DM is good at hiring managers.

[zzzmanwitz]

I think Macha is a bigger problem as well, I just would hate to waste another year with Macha, and I am not convinced after Yost and Macha, DM is good at hiring managers.

 

I definitely agree with this, but I will never believe that a manager will make that big of an impact.

[Fatter than Joey]

I definitely agree with this, but I will never believe that a manager will make that big of an impact.

 

You said that managers "only" net 1-2 games -- are you willing to handicap the Brewers 1-2 games in the NL central race?

 

1-2 games is HUGE, no matter how you slice it.

[zzzmanwitz]

My problem with DM's trading strategy, is that it seems to me he has never traded a player when their stock was at a high point.

 

Richie Sexson

Scott Podsednik

Dan Kolb

Wayne Franklin

Lyle Overbay (maybe not PEAK level, but still good trade)

Matt LaPorta

[zzzmanwitz]

I definitely agree with this, but I will never believe that a manager will make that big of an impact.

 

You said that managers "only" net 1-2 games -- are you willing to handicap the Brewers 1-2 games in the NL central race?

 

1-2 games is HUGE, no matter how you slice it.

 

That is how i feel the difference between the very best manager in the league and the very worst. So if Yost was the worst, and let's say Torre is the best. The Dodgers get two games on the Brewers. Not every team gets 2 games on the Brewers. Maybe there is fact to back up your stance, I've never seen it, and until I do , I have a hard time believing that it really makes that much of a difference.

[Fatter than Joey]

Richie Sexson -- Sexson was in the "rebuilding era" -- I was speaking more to the "contender era" -- but I wasn't clear, so fair enough

 

Scott Podsednik -- Podsednik was traded a year to late -- Podsednik really is a good example of what irks me. We got a great return, but the instant Pods got 2nd in the ROY we should have flipped him

 

Dan Kolb -- traded a year too late as well

 

Wayne Franklin -- Franklin's peak value may have been in 12u. The trade worked out well, but this trade was not DM dealing from strength

 

Lyle Overbay (maybe not PEAK level, but still good trade) -- Yes, Overbay was a good trade

 

Matt LaPorta -- I am sure LaPorta's peak value was not in 2008.

[nate82]

A) Jack Z is responsible for all of our success, but Melvin is to blame for our lack of pitching.

 

Here is how I view this situation -- DM is looking for a certain type player, it was JZ's job to find that type of player -- that is to say JZ took his direction from DM. I believe DM overvalued hitting, and undervalued pitching and defense. His tenure in Texas indicates that as well. I think JZ made DM look pretty good, had DM pointed JZ in another direction, perhaps we'd have some pitching depth in our organization.

Not really correct at all. The philosophy of DM and Jack Z was that of take the best available player who could be signed. It wasn't take a hitter because Melvin said so it was take the best available player that the scouts had pointed out and then look at which of those available players would be signable and then pick that player. I doubt it came down to we need pitchers lets draft pitchers or we should get hitters so lets draft hitters.

 

I don't see DM as undvalueing pitching and defense. Hardy was more known for his glove than his bat and they drafted him there are more like Hardy you are just looking to find them to further your agenda open your eyes and ears.

[zzzmanwitz]

Matt LaPorta -- I am sure LaPorta's peak value was not in 2008.

 

Time will tell.

[Fatter than Joey]

Not really correct at all. The philosophy of DM and Jack Z was that of take the best available player who could be signed.

 

"The best available player that can be signed" -- Is ultimately a subjective choice from a group of players, it's not as of there is one player, that everyone agrees on is "the best one".

 

I doubt it came down to we need pitchers lets draft pitchers or we should get hitters so lets draft hitters.

 

Every team needs pitchers every year.

 

Hardy was more known for his glove than his bat

 

Hardy was drafted out of HS, they liked his bat.

 

you are just looking to find them to further your agenda open your eyes and ears.

 

You should fear my agenda, and remain vigilant against it. You are the only obstacle in my path. I am like the super-hero Daredevil, except less fruity.

[TooLiveBrew]

Cameron is a great deal at 10 Million

 

Indeed he is, but wouldn't you rather have a Matt Garza type ($400,000), Lorenzo Cain/Gwynn Jr (400,000), and then the remaining 9.2M on say a great free agent...

Matsuzaka, Haren...are between 8-9 million as an example. Give me those 3 players over 1 CF.

This kind of approach on this topic really bothers me. Mike Cameron was, and still is, an amazing FA acquisition. Yet you pick his contract apart, add in (like zzzman said) a flukish, once-in-a-decade kind of trade like Garza, and then say, 'Use the remaining money on a great free agent'

 

Melvin did use $9-ish million on a great free agent (Cam), but some fans just can't seem to be happy about that. Dan Haren? $8-9 million? You mean this Dan Haren, the Dan Haren that was *traded for* (& cost a king's ransom in prospects) & then extended?

 

2009: $7.5M

2010: $8.25M

2011: $12.75M

2012: $12.75M

2013: $15.5M ($3.5M club option)

 

 

Or... this Matsuzaka, who as zzzman also noted cost merely $51.111M just to negotiate with?

 

2009: $8M ($16.518M**)

2010: $8M ($16.518M**)

2011: $10M ($18.518M**)

2012: $10M ($18.518M **)

 

** -- these values are if you equally disperse the $51,111,111M posting fee the BoSox paid the Seibu Lions just to speak with Daisuke. Of course, you can't even do that, since whatever team signed Matsuzaka had to have the extra $50M+ sitting around at the time... not gradually available to them over the duration of the 6-year contract.

 

lcbj68c, I want to say that you've had access to things most fans don't, and I respect your knowledge & the sharing of it. However, it just really irks me when fans play the 'what if' game in general, and specifically when said fans seemingly just pull names they like out of a hat & use them as perfect 20/20 hindsight critiques.

 

In short, would I love to have a really nice free agent SP that costs just $8M or $9M per season? You bet. Does this player exist? No. And would I want to see the money spent on Cameron (2008: $5M; 2009: $10M) spent in any other way? Not a chance in...

[Fatter than Joey]

Hardy was drafted by Dean Taylor, I think.

[lcbj68c]

lcbj68c, I want to say that you've had access to things most fans don't, and I respect your knowledge & the sharing of it. However, it just really irks me when fans play the 'what if' game in general, and specifically when said fans seemingly just pull names they like out of a hat & use them as perfect 20/20 hindsight critiques.

 

Fair enough. Like I've already said. Tampa has proven that it can be done. I would have no problem with Dan Haren's contract. I don't care how you get the pitching here, let's just get it here. When we are still sitting here in 2014 without any pitching, our offense is still in the top 15% percentile of the league... then what? It seems then the only excuse is, "It's cold here..or "We're the Milwaukee Brewers". That's not good enough for me. US Army recruiters have a tough job too. Guess what...we still have an army. (Let's not take this towards war policy, etc). Doug Melvin is not a very good recruiter and I think you need to be a good recruiter in the business of sports today, free agency being what it is. I'd gladly like to play a guy for 400,000 and free up 9M for a pitcher..we'll just have to disagree there that a chance at 200+ innings pitched of an ERA under 3.00 is more valuable than 25 home runs and gold glove defense from Cam, when scoring runs usually isn't the issue with this team. Again, I don't understand WAR and all those other metrics and maybe that's why I'm wrong in my beliefs, who knows.

[TooLiveBrew]

Fair enough. Like I've already said. Tampa has proven that it can be done

 

I'm sorry, what has Tampa proven? And honestly, what does one such trade in the past 5-ish seasons prove one way or another? Did Omar Minaya adding Johan Santana prove you can acquire ace SPing by offering a quantity deal of so-so prospects?

 

 

I would have no problem with Dan Haren's contract.

 

I wouldn't either, but the problem is that you asserted he could have been had on the FA market (not true) for $8M -$9M per year (also not true)

 

 

US Army recruiters have a tough job too. Guess what...we still have an army.

 

Well, we still have a baseball team, too.

 

 

we'll just have to disagree there that a chance at 200+ innings pitched of an ERA under 3.00 is more valuable than 25 home runs and gold glove defense from Cam, when scoring runs usually isn't the issue with this team

 

No one EVER said that... you can't find the kind of pitcher you describe for the amount of money you're claiming. And btw, don't you think Cameron has been a huge part of this team scoring runs?

[lcbj68c]

I'm sorry, what has Tampa proven?

How to win a pennant with a balance of homegrown talent under 6 years of control, sprinkled in with great free agent acquistions, great trade acqusitions, while playing in a small market, with a very smaller payroll (43M), in a much tougher division, while having to pay for a DH, and having crappy facilities with which to recruit those free agents. What hasn't Andrew Friedman and their baseball operations people proven? I'd love to have a pennant right now.

 

 

I wouldn't either, but the problem is that you asserted he could have been had on the FA market (not true) for $8M -$9M per year (also not true)

I didnt not assert 8-9million per year. I only asserted the types of pitchers who are making 8-9 million THIS YEAR, similiar to what Cameron is making THIS YEAR.

 

Well, we still have a baseball team, too.

 

The best in the world?

 

 

we'll just have to disagree there that a chance at 200+ innings pitched of an ERA under 3.00 is more valuable than 25 home runs and gold glove defense from Cam, when scoring runs usually isn't the issue with this team

 

No one EVER said that... you can't find the kind of pitcher you describe for the amount of money you're claiming. And btw, don't you think Cameron has been a huge part of this team scoring runs?

 

Edwin Jackson...Matt Cain...Dan Haren with Oakland? If other teams find them, why can't we?

[endaround]

There's this guy named Gallardo you might want to check out.

[TooLiveBrew]

Oakland traded for Haren. Cain was drafted by SF. Edwin Jackson was acquired by DET via trade. You can't make an argument about FA pitching, and then cite trade acquisitions to back it up imho. Completely different animals.

 

 

How to win a pennant with a balance of homegrown talent under 6 years of control, sprinkled in with great free agent acquistions, great trade acqusitions, while playing in a small market, with a very smaller payroll (43M), in a much tougher division, while having to pay for a DH, and having crappy facilities with which to recruit those free agents. What hasn't Andrew Friedman and their baseball operations people proven? I'd love to have a pennant right now

 

I don't see what Friedman has done much better than Melvin. I can't believe you're hanging "not having a pennant" on Melvin when everyone knows that luck has more to do with things than anything else in the postseason. Remember how he acquired CC to get this team to the postseason? Are you going to say it's Melvin's fault that CC crapped out in the playoffs?

 

What are the "great FA acquisitions" made by Friedman? Pat Burrell? What are the great trades aside from the fluky Garza-for-Young deal (great move by Freidman & Co., but I don't really give him much credit for Steve Phillips handing him Scott Kazmir either -- not sure if Friedman was GM at the time, either).

 

While I definitely agree that Freidman & the Rays have been run very, very well of late, I just don't see this glaring gap btw. Melvin & Friedman. I honestly don't have the time at the moment, but I will look more into that comparison later.

[brewblue1]

Why is no one mentioning the fact that Dougie-boy has built a team that, for the 3rd year in a row, has played terribly come June and July, taking themselves out of contention.

 

Niether Dougie, nor CC Sa-bye-thia, got this team into the playoffs. The NY Mets ineptitude at the end of the season did.

 

And why are we so happy that the Brewers made the playoffs, only to embarrass themselves and prove, emphatically, that they did not belong there. Dougie's wonder pitching staff performed oh so well in the playoff series, didn't they.

 

Doug has built the exact kind of team in Milwaukee that eventually got him fired in Texas. It's a team with an ok offense (one could argue that TX offense was better in DMs tenure) and a terrible pitching staff.

 

I, for one, am not happy with that, just because of an over-rated playoff appearance. I'm sorry so many of you disagree with me, but I just don't think DM is the man to build a team good enough to go to the playoffs AND WIN!

[lcbj68c]

You can't make an argument about FA pitching, and then cite trade acquisitions to back it up imho. Completely different animals.

 

I've repeatedly said I don't care how it gets here, just get it here. I've cited many a ways to acquire talent, even so much as stating maybe the foreign scouting needs to improve. I've given credit to Melvin for everything he's accomplished. Certainly not having a pennant isn't squarely on Melvin, but I do believe not having a pennant is directly related to the pitching staff that was acquired/not acquired over the past 6 years. The hard part isn't that we didnt have one yet from 08' or 09', but that baring something very dramatic, we won't have one in 10', 11', or as far as one can see until Melvin changes his philosophies or learns to be a better recruiter. He does most things very well and I'd rather he change his philosophies towards FA's and the budget better, but at what point do you cut bait? Doesn't this team need somebody to get them over the top at some point? 2012? 2020? 2025? I think the track record is proven enough at this point.

[crewcrazy]

What are the "great FA acquisitions" made by Friedman? Pat Burrell? What are the great trades aside from the fluky Garza-for-Young deal (great move by Freidman & Co., but I don't really give him much credit for Steve Phillips handing him Scott Kazmir either -- not sure if Friedman was GM at the time, either).

While I definitely agree that Freidman & the Rays have been run very, very well of late, I just don't see this glaring gap btw. Melvin & Friedman. I honestly don't have the time at the moment, but I will look more into that comparison later.

 

Friedman's only been Tampa's GM since 2006, so it's hard to credit him with drafting much more than Evan Longoria and David Price (the consensus #1 overall pick that year). We'll see what Tim Beckham turns into -- he's still only 19 and playing his first season of full-season ball IIRC.

 

What you can't credit Friedman for is the drafting of B.J. Upton, Carl Crawford, Jeff Niemann, Andy Sonnanstine, and James Shields. He's made some solid moves (trading Aubrey Huff for Ben Zobrist, the Young/Garza deal), but he's also made some moves that look bad in hindsight (giving up early on Jorge Cantu, giving away Edwin Jackson for outfield depth). In short, he's just like every other good GM out there.