Why Do Some Want to Fire Melvin?

[TooLiveBrew]

With all due respect, I do not think this is how the real world works.

 

On an internet message board that promotes healthy Brewers discussion, it's absolutely how it should (& most often does) work. If you want to complain about the team in general, that's one thing. But to bash a player or players without bringing up some realistic alternative moves that could or should have been made, that's another. Like I said, it's really not hard to do the homework & provide some alternatives.

[RockCoCougars]

I'm not on the Fire Melvin bandwagon just yet, but if he is let go, this has to be the season to do it. The Brewers are probably coming up towards one of their most pivotal off-seasons ever, and I don't want anybody with a smidgen of lame duck in them making those decisions.

[logan82]

I honestly wasn't to happy with this offseason. Davis and Hawkins were bland signings that I really didn't disapprove of, although I thought the Davis signing would spell the end of Suppan in the rotation. My fault, I completely overestimated Macha. Davis filled a need and isn't really expensive. Ditto for Hawkins though we could have just went with Braddock or Axford. The Wolf signing was ok but for a little to much money. At least it is only 3 years and at no point should really be to much of a burden. Hated the Hardy trade. Gomez is redundant but I can see how teams would be interested in his potential. I would have rather just gone with Gerut in CF. I didn't like the Hoffman deal either. We signed him before the market shook out and ended up paying way to much. Zaun bought some service time but he is only a small upgrade over Kendall. Not one move that I was more than lukewarm about. Of course I really don't want Melvin fired either. Things could easily be much worse.

[Postseason2006]

Terry Ryan is from Janesville and has worked with less.

[RockCoCougars]

Terry Ryan is from Janesville and has worked with less.

You know, that's a heck of a good point. If he could bring his buddy TK with him, I'd be on board.

[MJLiverock]

With all due respect, I do not think this is how the real world works.

 

On an internet message board that promotes healthy Brewers discussion, it's absolutely how it should (& most often does) work. If you want to complain about the team in general, that's one thing. But to bash a player or players without bringing up some realistic alternative moves that could or should have been made, that's another. Like I said, it's really not hard to do the homework & provide some alternatives.

C'mon, TLB, that sounds a bit condescending. If it really was that easy why even have a guy doing it full time? There is nothing wrong with criticizing Melvin, a fan shouldn't have to come up with a 10 mintue presentation with bullet points on exact fixes in order to be allowed to be critical of the managment of the team. If there were no improvements to be made the team wouldn't languish around .500.

 

In addition to the deals done by Melvin, no one knows what deals he hasn't done that were offered or that he could have proposed either. In the end the results on the field are the measuring stick. I have said it a number of times, I dont' think Melvin the worst GM by any means but if the team is plateaued as an 80 win team I would not be satisfied with those results. He can't keep scraping together low risk moves to flounder at this level, letting the cheap years of studs to fritter away. At some point I think the team would be better off accepting they aren't a playoff caliber team as constructed and take the lumps of rebuiding so that when this supposed young wave of pitching hits the majors they can make a better run of it than they did with the last wave of cheap talent. One playoff appearance and a bunch of mediocre years for the wave of Fielder, Braun, Hardy, Hart, Gallardo, Parra, etc. is pretty disappointing. Even that one year took a historic performance by CC and a bit of a Mets collapse to happen.

 

But for people to get into the "you can't criticize Melvin" unless you know exactly which players and which deals can be made seems to much in the vein of sycophant to Melvin.

 

Change isn't always a fix but it isn't always bad either.

 

Or a famous quote comes to mind, "If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten."

 

[Roscoe Chill]

Terry Ryan is from Janesville and has worked with less.

Terry Ryan is a Twin, and he's retired. He's not interested in the Milwaukee job.

[NievesNoNO]

RockCoCougars[/b]]I'm not on the Fire Melvin bandwagon just yet, but if he is let go, this has to be the season to do it. The Brewers are probably coming up towards one of their most pivotal off-seasons ever, and I don't want anybody with a smidgen of lame duck in them making those decisions.

I agree. There are a ton of franchises in a much worse position than Milwaukee. I'm not saying Melvin should be void of criticism but he's made baseball relevant again in Milwaukee. I just looked at the 2002, roster he inherited and wow, it really reaffirmed how far he has brought this team. It will be interesting to see where this off-season goes. If management is willing to take a couple steps backward to take more forward in a few years I think we'll be in good shape. Eight years, while it seems like a long time, considering the state of the whole system when he took over I don't think is quite enough to make a final judgement. He needed to basically replenish the entire system. Now that the first wave of players is coming into their FA/arbitration years we'll see how he handles them all.

[TooLiveBrew]

C'mon, TLB, that sounds a bit condescending. If it really was that easy why even have a guy doing it full time?

 

I apologize (in general, and specifically to Beast Light) for the condescension -- didn't intend that at all. Re-reading it, I definitely should've said it differently. My only point was that it's not overly difficult to go back & do something like check Cot's Baseball Contracts or MLBTradeRumors or similar sites to come up with alternatives (or ask TheCrew07 http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif) I really dislike when fans throw around the 'Anybody but THIS guy!' line without bringing anything/much to back it. Imo it's always important to keep context fully in the discussion.

 

 

But for people to get into the "you can't criticize Melvin" unless you know exactly which players and which deals can be made seems to much in the vein of sycophant to Melvin.

 

I don't believe you can't criticize Melvin, I just believe that declaring a given player worthless or whatever, without examining realistic alternatives, is just fans venting and/or soothing their own tempers. Overall, I believe Melvin is easily in the upper half of GMs in baseball. Depending on what you think of him, that could just be an indictment of how poor MLB GMs are overall. I think the Brewers could improve, but imo they'd have to go the unconventional route (see Andrew Friedman of the Rays). If I had to guess, I'd say the chances the team would worsen itself at GM by making a change are greater than the chances it'd improve itself.

[DougJones43]

The reason it's not valid to ask "what would you have done this offseason?" or "who would you have signed?" is that Melvin didn't just arrive on the scene this past offseason. He's been with the team since 2002, and all of the moves he has made along the way are exponential and have led the franchise to be in the exact state it was during the offseason.

 

Just because there were not a lot of free agent options this year doesn't mean nothing could have been done differently. If Melvin had acquired any decent young pitching at all during the past handful of years, instead of spending all of his resources getting "major league ready talent" like Mench, Estrada, Graffanino, Vargas, Suppan, Gomez, etc, this team would probably be in a lot better shape. There's an unlimited amount of possibilities for how this team could be better now, but you have to go all the way back to when he took the reigns -- and it's obviously not practical to try and state what moves could have been made since each move since the beginning has had a lasting effect on the moves that can be made after. Also, we will never know what moves were available to him.

 

Unless you believe there was no possible way Melvin could have obtained more good young pitching at any point during his 8-year tenure, the argument just doesn't really hold water.

[danzig6767]

The reason it's not valid to ask "what would you have done this offseason?" or "who would you have signed?" is that Melvin didn't just arrive on the scene this past offseason. He's been with the team since 2002, and all of the moves he has made along the way are exponential and have led the franchise to be in the exact state it was during the offseason.

 

Just because there were not a lot of free agent options this year doesn't mean nothing could have been done differently. If Melvin had acquired any decent young pitching at all during the past handful of years, instead of spending all of his resources getting "major league ready talent" like Mench, Estrada, Graffanino, Vargas, Suppan, Gomez, etc, this team would probably be in a lot better shape. There's an unlimited amount of possibilities for how this team could be better now, but you have to go all the way back to when he took the reigns -- and it's obviously not practical to try and state what moves could have been made since each move since the beginning has had a lasting effect on the moves that can be made after. Also, we will never know what moves were available to him.

 

Unless you believe there was no possible way Melvin could have obtained more good young pitching at any point during his 8-year tenure, the argument just doesn't really hold water.

Yep

 

If we had a different GM for even just the last 2-3 years, i think it's pretty logical to deduce that we wouldn't have the same roster that we currently do have. Obviously that could mean the team would then would be worse than it is this year and maybe also the last year or two. It's also very possible that the team would be better, but it's not as if the only possible moves available would be he ones Doug made.

 

That's why bottom line results matter to me most except if the Brewers had an excessive amount of injuries in relation to the rest of the league. I hate when some say that if fans want to criticize a professional GM that then those fans must first state what moves they'd have made instead. Well, fans aren't supposed to know more than a GM getting paid big money and that have a large staff of people to help make player evaluations. A GM also is able to call every other GM to try and barter deals, fans on a forum certainly don't have that option. So there would be all kinds of potential deals available to every GM that they then choose to make or pass on for other deals or nothing at all. These things all factor into what shape a baseball team ends up being in and thus why they are accountable for the results within reason given not all GM's have equal revenue streams to work with.

[joepepsi]

If Melvin had acquired any decent young pitching at all during the past handful of years, instead of spending all of his resources getting "major league ready talent" like Mench, Estrada, Graffanino, Vargas, Suppan, Gomez, etc, this team would probably be in a lot better shape.

I think Melvin was trying to acquire veteran players to complement his young talent in an effort to win now for the fans. I suspect if he had focused on young minor league pitching we'd have heard cries of the Brewers being in perpetual rebuilding mode.

[Postseason2006]

Terry Ryan is from Janesville and has worked with less.

 

Terry Ryan is a Twin, and he's retired. He's not interested in the Milwaukee job.

 

You know this how? People ask to give names and one is given. Yet, that's not good enough.

 

Melvin did a terrible job and is a run of the mill GM hiring buddies to coach much like Mike Sherman.

[Roscoe Chill]

You know this how? People ask to give names and one is given. Yet, that's not good enough.

 

Trust me? I believe I might have even leaked some inside info on this site three or four years ago that his retirement was coming.

 

But even if you don't buy that, why would he retire from the Twins if he was interested in running a baseball team at this point in his life? Because Milwaukee is an hour and a half from Janesville? His home is in Minneapolis, and not only that he still works for the Twins anyway.

 

That's fine that people are giving names. I'm contributing that this one isn't realistic.

 

 

[Postseason2006]

Regardless, this team is going nowhere fast. If Mark A wants to be a winner he needs to dump M&M and salvage the rest of the season. Having the prospects to trade for CC is the only thing Melvin can hang his hat on here in Milwaukee.

[bklynbrewcrew]

How about a guy like Brandon Morrow as an example of the type of young arm that Melvin could have had but didnt make happen. He was traded from Seattle to Toronto for a reliever (Brandon League) and an OF prospect. I dont see how Hardy or Hart wouldnt have been a more attractive package for Jack Z especially when he drafted our guys and his team is terrible offensively. Morrow is young and throws in the high 90s, exactly the type of power arm this team hasnt had in years. Morrow has control issues so he may or may not make it but I sure would rather see a guy like that with huge upside starting for the Brewers over the likes of Doug Davis and Jeff Suppan.

 

Melvin has a very long track record of building his staffs around soft tossers with little to no upside. His ace in Texas was John Burkett and his Rangers teams were very much like the Crew; good offenses and wretched pitching. I just dont see anything in Melvin's long history to suggest that he will acquire young power arms which are necessary to win championships. Brandon Morrow is just the latest example of a guy we could have acquired with high upside without giving up much. Kudos to the Toronto GM for making the type of trade Doug Melvin has never gotten done.

[Invader3K]

I think my biggest problem with Melvin is how indecisive he was on where the team was heading mid-season in '09. Yeah, we were still kind of competitive in June and July. He traded for Lopez, which I do think was a nice move. However, he did nothing to help the starting pitching at all. It was obvious that some key aces were available, but he let them go to other teams. Supposedly he was involved in negotiations, but he wasn't over aggressive. By the trading deadline it was obvious the team desperately needed SP help if we were going to make a legitimate push for the playoffs. Instead he essentially stood pat. Then in August when we could have dealt some veterans for perhaps at least some mid-level prospects or cheaper young guys, he didn't even bother to make a move then.

 

I know hindsight is 20/20, but if he had dealt a few pieces like Hoffman, Counsell, Cameron, Kendall, maybe even Gamel and/or Salome, the team would probably be in much better shape today.

 

Either your team is in it or isn't in it. You can't just make a couple middling moves and pretend you're trying to still compete.

[Baldkin]

Maybe they should've sold last year, by the trading deadline the team was in a free fall due to a complete lack of pitching.

 

The biggest problem is that payroll for the 'Crew is so tied to ticket sales. That fact may very well limit their ability to sell off pieces, even in a down year. Obviously I can't say this for sure... but if this season keeps up the way it is, I'd have to say Hoffman, Prince, Bush and Hart will all be on the block.

[trwi7]

I know hindsight is 20/20, but if he had dealt a few pieces like Hoffman, Counsell, Cameron, Kendall, maybe even Gamel and/or Salome, the team would probably be in much better shape today.

 

Either your team is in it or isn't in it. You can't just make a couple middling moves and pretend you're trying to still compete.

 

I don't know why anybody is surprised by this. He did the same stupid thing in 2006. At the trade deadline we were 9 games out in the division, 5.5 back in the wildcard with five teams to pass, tied with another team and three more teams within a game of us. The chances of us winning that year were slim to none. What did he do? He went out and traded JDLR for Tony Graffanino, traded Lee and Cruz for Cordero and crap and picked up David Bell. The only trade that didn't suck was the David Bell trade. It's like Melvin thought those moves, plus getting Sheets and Ohka back would be enough to push us into the playoffs.

[crewcrazy]

I think my biggest problem with Melvin is how indecisive he was on where the team was heading mid-season in '09. Yeah, we were still kind of competitive in June and July. He traded for Lopez, which I do think was a nice move. However, he did nothing to help the starting pitching at all. It was obvious that some key aces were available, but he let them go to other teams. Supposedly he was involved in negotiations, but he wasn't over aggressive. By the trading deadline it was obvious the team desperately needed SP help if we were going to make a legitimate push for the playoffs. Instead he essentially stood pat. Then in August when we could have dealt some veterans for perhaps at least some mid-level prospects or cheaper young guys, he didn't even bother to make a move then.

 

I know hindsight is 20/20, but if he had dealt a few pieces like Hoffman, Counsell, Cameron, Kendall, maybe even Gamel and/or Salome, the team would probably be in much better shape today.

 

Either your team is in it or isn't in it. You can't just make a couple middling moves and pretend you're trying to still compete.

From what I remember of that time period last season, Melvin did put in a claim on Doug Davis and seemed to have legitimate interest in finishing a deal, but it couldn't come together in time to get a deal done within that 72-hour window. Not exactly a high-profile move like the previous summer, but it was pretty widely believed that the Brewers didn't have what it took to get Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee.

 

Hoffman was claimed by the Giants, but I don't remember there being any serious negotiations reported in that scenario. Granted, in hindsight it might've been a good idea to let Hoffman go, get a piece or two from him, and thereby avoid signing him to the extension that looks so bad after Hoffman's April, but we don't know what the Giants offered before Doug pulled him back.

[logan82]

He went out and traded JDLR for Tony Graffanino, traded Lee and Cruz for Cordero and crap and picked up David Bell. The only trade that didn't suck was the David Bell trade. It's like Melvin thought those moves, plus getting Sheets and Ohka back would be enough to push us into the playoffs.

We had a need at 2B. JDLR was going nowhere with us. Cordero was a good closer for us for the rest of that year and the whole next year. Lee wasn't going to resign and Cruz was blocked and didn't look very good.(we still could have claimed him off of waivers a year or two later)

[trwi7]

We had a need at 2B. JDLR was going nowhere with us.

The team was going nowhere. Why give up a hard throwing lefty for an old 2B? That was bad.

Cordero was a good closer for us for the rest of that year and the whole next year.

Did I say he wasn't? Mench and Nix were junk. We traded two good players for one.

Lee wasn't going to resign and Cruz was blocked and didn't look very good.

Blocked by who? Jenkins? Hall? Hart? He posted a nearly 1.000 OPS while in AAA. He posted a .919 OPS as a 23 year old in AA and posted an .872 OPS as a 24 year old in AAA and a .907 OPS in AAA as a 25 year old for the Sounds when he was traded. Melvin treated him as a throw-in. I'm sorry, that was a horrible trade. We would've been better off just keeping Lee and then letting him sign and taking the picks.

[Baldkin]

A year and a half of Cordero for 3 months of Carlos Lee was a great deal. We had to give up MORE to get Coco from the Rangers, hence Nelson Cruz. The other crap we got back was to help fill the lineup, I can't blame Melvin for the idiocy that was Ned Yost trotting Mench out to the field against RHP's constantly.

There's no way the team barely (yes, 1 blown save counts as barely) misses the playoffs in 2007 without Cordero.

 

Obviously he wasn't even that highly thought of by the Rangers (or anyone else) as he was put on waivers in spring '08.

In 2006 he was blocked by Hart, Gross, and Jenkins.

I'll never say that was a bad deal. Nor was the Hall deal at the time it was made.

I will agree though, the next 18 months (~30M off the payroll and what to do about Prince) will shape the franchise for many years to come, so if they are going to make a GM move, now is the time to do it.

[endaround]

JDLR wasn't going to make the roster the following season. JDLR couldn't even keep a Royals roster spot.

[TooLiveBrew]

bklynbrewcrew]How about a guy like Brandon Morrow as an example of the type of young arm that Melvin could have had but didnt make happen. He was traded from Seattle to Toronto for a reliever (Brandon League) and an OF prospect.

The reason he was had for such a good price is that many/most don't think he can be a starter, due to his diabetes & BB problems