Why Do Some Want to Fire Melvin?

[Fatter than Joey]

Would you rather have 6years of a major league ready Escobar or 2 years of him trying to learn on the fly and 4 of him playing at the level he will now?

 

It really depends... It's not as if this decision is done in a vacuum... there are $$$ considerations than would affect other aspects of the team, and of course who Hardy could have gotten traded for at different points in his career. All I am really saying, is that I think it is fair and reasonable to criticize DM for the way Hardy was handled from Day 1 to the trade, and of course there were a lot of people here squawking the whole time, this wasn't a MMQB sort of thing. I think a reasonable argument can be made to the contrary as well... thus the debate....

 

On the other hand, I really don't think the JDLR criticism is very valid.

 

I think Hart's off season arbitration win has made him look a lot worse in people's eyes than he really is.

 

I think people don't like his approach to hitting (prior to this season), and his OF play... people were rubbed the wrong way, before his Arby case.

[trwi7]

  Ennder said:

Cruz was an important part of the deal because Cordero had more value than Lee at the time.

 

I strongly disagree. A half year of a hitter for 1.5 years of a reliever? I'm sorry, that was just a terrible trade. We had to give up a good hitter and a guy who turned into a really good overall player for 1.5 years of a reliever and two useless outfielders.

 

Nobody will ever convince me that that was a good trade or even a mediocre trade. It was horrible.

[Ennder]

  trwi7 said:

  Ennder said:

Cruz was an important part of the deal because Cordero had more value than Lee at the time.

 

I strongly disagree. A half year of a hitter for 1.5 years of a reliever? I'm sorry, that was just a terrible trade. We had to give up a good hitter and a guy who turned into a really good overall player for 1.5 years of a reliever and two useless outfielders.

 

Nobody will ever convince me that that was a good trade or even a mediocre trade. It was horrible.

Carlos Lee put up 2.6 WAR in 2006 and about 2/3rds of that was with the Brewers, he was making $8.5M to do it. Cordero put up a 1.6 WAR in 06 (his lowest total during that entire stretch) and another 2.4 WAR in 07 and he only made $4.1 in 2006. We got a RP who was pretty close to as good as the hitter, was probably underpaid and we got him for a full extra season. Carlos Lee is not nearly as good a player as people seem to think he was, the defense really hurt, the lack of BBs really hurt. Regardless of what you think of the overall deal if we offered Lee for Cordero as the entire deal in 2006 the Rangers are the ones that would have turned it down, Cordero had more value given their contract status than Lee.

 

Adding Cruz may very well have been overpaying, hard to say given how long it took him to do anything and how most of his stats have come in that hitters park. Mench and Nix also could have been better than they were. Nix struggled through injuries and Mench probably got off the steroids and couldn't hit anymore.

[Warning Track Power]

Nix may be may all-time least favorite Brewer.

 

That guy was garbage for the time he was here (2007 and 2008 combined 1 for 24) and yet seemed to always do something against us last season as a member of the Reds.

 

The Lee for Cordero part was not the part that was that irked me as Carlos wasn't coming back to Milwaukee. It was the Cruz swap for Mench and Nix when Cruz was .289 in Double AA and .302 in Triple AAA at the ages of 24 and 25 that irked me.

 

Including Cruz is something the Yankees, Red Sox or Dodgers have the "luxury" of doing for two pedestrian OFs.

[Ennder]

Cruz was included to make the Cordero for Lee part work, Nix and Mench where throwins to try to even it out. Thinking about it as Cruz for Mench and Nix is wrong imo.

[MJLiverock]

JDLR didn't bother me much at the time and I wouldn't look back on that one. IIRC he was out of options and just wasn't effective but given his talent probably wouldn't slip through unclaimed to AAA so getting a useful, needed player for him wasn't too bad in the short run.

 

I will never understand the Cruz thing, the guy was a masher in the minors and had a great OF arm. He was never really given a chance in the MLB level. I remember some criticism of his K rate and questions about his ability to hit breaking stuff. For whatever reason the Brewers just never really seemed that interested in him, he didn't get the hype like so many other prospects.

 

I think even at the time either Melvin or reporters made it seem like a change of scenery was needed for Cruz and Nix or at least I always viewed as Melvin wanted Nix more than Cruz.

 

Of course GM's let go of guys early but it doesn't mean everyone should just forget about some of the players Melvin let go of when some of his biggest supporters laud picking up guys like Davis, McGehee, etc. Melvin has certainly not been as infallible as some would have us believe when they declare him a top 5 GM. I don't want the guy fired yet but eventually he will get fired, it happens to every GM eventually. I think he is OK for a GM, great for rebuilding a franchise that has nothing but I am not sold on him getting a franchise to the next level. I think he is overly conservative at times and is content to tinker around fringes of things without big risks leading to avoiding big mistakes but also limiting upside.

[joepepsi]

In fairness Nix is the same age, considered a pretty good defensive outfielder capable in CF, has some power and a career minor league OPS over .800. So, if it did take Cruz to get CoCo, I'm sure Melvin was hoping to get a good lefty CF'er with power in return. Maybe Nix didn't project as the hitter Cruz was, but the team did need more lefty bats and a CF'er to replace Brady Clark going forward. Obviously it was a risk that didn't pay off, but at the time I don't think it was as glaringly one sided as some remember.

[Warning Track Power]

  Ennder said:

Cruz was included to make the Cordero for Lee part work, Nix and Mench where throwins to try to even it out. Thinking about it as Cruz for Mench and Nix is wrong imo.

As I recall, Mench was a MUST in the deal from Melvin's end and Cruz was added as a must from Texas as possible replacement in the event Carlos left Texas. My point was that when that deal was made in 2006, I think most of us would have rather seen Cruz than Mench in the OF as the dealing of Carlos really ended our chances in 2006.

 

[Ennder]

  Warning Track Power said:

As I recall, Mench was a MUST in the deal from Melvin's end and Cruz was added as a must from Texas as possible replacement in the event Carlos left Texas. My point was that when that deal was made in 2006, I think most of us would have rather seen Cruz than Mench in the OF as the dealing of Carlos really ended our chances in 2006.

I just don't believe it was quite this cut and dry. I don't think Melvin would have traded Cruz straight up for Mench and Nix and I don't think the Rangers would have traded Cordero straight up for 1/3 of a year of Lee.

[The Truth]

Why fire Melvin? His hire of Ken Macha is beginning to look like a reasonable excuse.

[Ennder]

  The Truth said:

Why fire Melvin? His hire of Ken Macha is beginning to look like a reasonable excuse.

You got me there!

 

Macha has done some things I really disagree with but from a bullpen management standpoint he hasn't bothered me until this game. This was every bit as mismanaged as a Yost game and he was king of mismanaging a bullpen.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Melvin should be fired for his hiring of two incompetent managers alone.

[Gobias Industries]

I really want to know what Ken Macha did in the interview to make Melvin say "Yeah, that's the guy I want to lead our team."

 

It certainly can't be his people skills. Did anyone see his interview with the ESPN guys Sunday Night? Came across as a complete jerk.

[danzig6767]

  Backupcatchers said:

I agree with the assessment that if the team finishes under .500 this year, it's probably time to move on from Melvin. Sometimes a franchise just needs a change in direction.

 

While I can certainly respect this line of thinking I usually go with the philosophy that once you get competent people in place you keep them in place. The idea of change of direction is fine but if the team is going in the right direction changing it is not wise. There is something to be said for continuity/stability. Obviously you think if we are below .500 the direction isn't right. I sort of agree but think a guy who has proven he can rebuild 2 terrible franchises into playoff teams has shown he knows what he is doing. That doesn't just go away. I would look else where for the problem.

If we finish under .500 and i was Attanasio, i look hard for a replacement to Melvin. The Selig's seemed to operate with a low expectations mentality that Attanasio doesn't share and i wouldn't either. Seven seasons under Melvin with one playoff berth that took a near historically good second half from CC is hardly a resume that would make me feel that Doug is a must keep asset.

 

I don't think Melvin is a poor GM, but i don't think what he's done here justifies the national reputation he holds. I'd rank him more as just a solid nothing special GM. Certainly replacing a solid GM could backfire if he was replaced by a guy who does worse, but a smart replacement could also bring better results. I personally would prefer that Attanasio rolled the dice on finding an improvement even knowing that he just as easily could end up hiring a downgrade.

[Baldkin]

The problem is, 7 years is barely enough time to bring an organization up from the ground.

 

None of Melvin's draft picks have hit free agency yet.

How many guys who were on the team/in the system when Melvin took over have gone on to lucrative free agent deals or have been a major part of the winning turnover? 2 or 3? Sheets? Jenkins? Hall?

The astounding lack of talent that the Brewers had both in the majors and the minors when Melvin took over is hard to fathom. Maybe Melvin can't get the team over the hump, but, in my opinion he deserves a bit longer to try to sort it out.

[Ennder]

7 years ago I wouldn't have expected the franchise to be in as good a state as it is in now. Guess it is a matter of expectations and reality. It is not easy rebuilding the worst organization in baseball and that is what he has done. I'm not sure he is the guy to take it to the next level though, so a change to someone you think would be better suited for that would be fine.

 

Bottom line is we have failed to develop pitching and that has killed the growth of the organization the past couple of years. We have developed like 2 viable starting pitchers in a 10 year or so period, that is a very bad track record. Not sure I can blame Melvin for it.

[danzig6767]

  Baldkin said:

The problem is, 7 years is barely enough time to bring an organization up from the ground.

So 7 years isn't enough, GM's need 10 years to properly evaluate if they take over a team in bad shape?

 

  Quote

None of Melvin's draft picks have hit free agency yet.

How many guys

who were on the team/in the system when Melvin took over have gone on to

lucrative free agent deals or have been a major part of the winning

turnover? 2 or 3? Sheets? Jenkins? Hall?

The astounding lack of

talent that the Brewers had both in the majors and the minors when

Melvin took over is hard to fathom. Maybe Melvin can't get the team over

the hump, but, in my opinion he deserves a bit longer to try to sort it

out.

If we do finish under .500 again this year, odds are high that a big chunk of the reason will be decisions by Melvin this past offseason and prior ones that didn't work out. Moves like 20 plus million of dead money between Suppan/Hall. Moves he made in putting together the pitching staff. Maybe Gomez doesn't work out.

 

This will be year three where Melvin has had Braun/Fielder forming one of the league's best 3-4 hitter duos at a very team friendly price tag that has allowed Melvin to use financial assets elsewhere. It's situations like that where a GM in a small market has to capitalize by putting a good team around them and Attanasio has given Melvin a fair chance financially to compete compared to many other small market teams. Doug hasn't had to try and win on 45-50 million dollar payrolls the last three years.

 

We'll see how the year pans out before getting on Doug to much, it's obviously very very early. As i said, i by no means think he's been a bad GM. I just would strongly consider replacing him if we finish under .500 again because then while he'll have done a solid job here, solid is just that. Not bad, but nothing special either and sometimes in sports you have to roll the dice in hopes of landing a special talent as GM or head coach even if it means risking letting go a guy who has been solid and the possibility is always there that the new hire could be significantly worse.

[Ennder]

Brewers are over .500 over the past 5 seasons which is pretty remarkable considering the state of the organization when he took over. One of the worst teams in baseball with one of the worst minor league systems in baseball and one of the smaller markets in baseball. I'm not saying Melvin should get a free pass or that he can for sure take us to the next level but any evaluation of him has to be a positive one at this point. I think if anything he has been a bit underrated by our fan base. I think questioning his future is very valid but complaining about his past doesn't make much sense.

[danzig6767]

  Ennder said:

7 years ago I wouldn't have expected the franchise to be in as good a state as it is in now. Guess it is a matter of expectations and reality. It is not easy rebuilding the worst organization in baseball and that is what he has done. I'm not sure he is the guy to take it to the next level though, so a change to someone you think would be better suited for that would be fine.

 

Bottom line is we have failed to develop pitching and that has killed the growth of the organization the past couple of years. We have developed like 2 viable starting pitchers in a 10 year or so period, that is a very bad track record. Not sure I can blame Melvin for it.

Yea the development of pitching in the organization has been terrible, but then sometimes a GM has to find other avenues to acquire pitching. Plus, a huge chunk of the reason for the Brewers success the last three years has been the incredible production at a cheap price of Braun and Fielder. Without those two in many ways carrying the offense, no way we win so many games since their arrival. So if Doug deserves the credit for bringing in those two franchise players, he certainly needs to be held at least fairly responsible for pitching short comings. I can't just give him credit for the guys who panned out and remove him from blame for failures elsewhere.

 

To be fair to Melvin, running a team like ours is much tougher than say the Red Sox who could make mistakes financially to players like Suppan/Hall and not end up having 20 million in dead money eating up nearly a 1/4 of the payroll, but it is what it is. The margin of error is obviously slimmer. So he needs to hit home runs sometimes when trading a Sexson or Overbay instead of hitting a solid single or double. Don't whiff completely when trading Davis. Maybe strike gold when he traded Kolb as some teams do as say it looks like the Indians may have when they got Carlos Santana for Blake.

 

In the seven years Melvin has been here, he's made many very nice moves that worked out well which helped bring the franchise back to being competitive. Outside of Lee for Podsednik though, has he made another in seven years that has been a wow what an amazing job move? Maybe he has and i'm just forgetting?

[danzig6767]

  Ennder said:

Brewers are over .500 over the past 5 seasons which is pretty remarkable considering the state of the organization when he took over. One of the worst teams in baseball with one of the worst minor league systems in baseball and one of the smaller markets in baseball. I'm not saying Melvin should get a free pass or that he can for sure take us to the next level but any evaluation of him has to be a positive one at this point. I think if anything he has been a bit underrated by our fan base. I think questioning his future is very valid but complaining about his past doesn't make much sense.

BTW, i'm not really ripping to strongly on his past and don't think he's done a bad job or is a bad GM. Ed Wade is an example of what a bad GM is. I'm just starting to really question that if i was Attanasio, would i keep Doug if the team finished in the 74-80 win range this year? If that was the result this year, i'd definitely do an extensive search of potential GM candidates before just bringing back Melvin. Whether there is a high quality GM in the waiting candidate that would be available is something i don't claim to have an answer to. Plus, as i said earlier, i certainly do grasp that if Doug was replaced after the season, it's just as possible that his replacement could be a bust as it is he'd be an upgrade.

[RobertR]

  Warning Track Power said:

As I recall, Mench was a MUST in the deal from Melvin's end and Cruz was added as a must from Texas as possible replacement in the event Carlos left Texas. My point was that when that deal was made in 2006, I think most of us would have rather seen Cruz than Mench in the OF as the dealing of Carlos really ended our chances in 2006.

Have we really forgotten that the root cause of the trade was the implosion of Derrick Turnbow? The Brewers weakened one area but strengthened another with that move. They had no chance without doing something to stabilize the bullpen, even with Carlos Lee.

 

And there's a lot of people that think the Brewers failing to make the playoffs in 2007 had more to do with Ned Yost, rather than the talent on hand.

 

Robert

 

[Fatter than Joey]

I don't think the Rangers would have traded Cordero straight up for 1/3 of a year of Lee.

 

Why not? they had moved Cordero out of the closer role.

[Postseason2006]

So what is the length of time it takes to build a disappointing franchise into a winnder from the depths of the low? Yours truly, John Schuerholz

[Invader3K]

  Quote

RobertR

wrote:

---

And there's a lot of people that think

the Brewers failing to make the playoffs in 2007 had more to do with Ned

Yost, rather than the talent on hand.

Yost definitely made some terrible decisions down the stretch. Those late season games against the Cardinals in particular were quite an embarrassment.

[EdgarDiazRocks]

  Warning Track Power said:

Nix may be may all-time least favorite Brewer.

Shaaa-whaaa???? How long you been watching?

 

Jeffrey Hammonds, Jeff Leonard, Kevin Reimer, Marc Newfield, Chuckie Carr, Sean Berry, Gary Sheffield, Franklin Stubbs??

 

You calling out Nix?

 

Strong words.