Why Do Some Want to Fire Melvin?

[endaround]

Yeah the Royals really won that one...

[Ennder]

Hard to point at guys who didn't show success until their age 28 season like 4 years after a trade and complain about the trade.

[Invader3K]

Hard to point at guys who didn't show success until their age 28 season like 4 years after a trade and complain about the trade.

Yeah, I agree. Not many were complaining about losing either of those guys at the time.

[Ennder]

If you look at any GM in baseball you are going to find guys just like this on their resume. Guys who just matured very late or needed a change of scenery to get their careers jump started. Seems like revisionist history to me.

[Funketown]

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/1097/cruzu.jpg

Who was acquired with Justin Lehr for all of Keith Ginter.

 

...and traded in a package with Carlos Lee (who was acquired for all of Scott Podsednik and Luis Vizcaino) for a package including Francisco Cordero, who gave the Brewers a couple of very good seasons and eventually a couple of draft picks...

 

As for De la Rosa, wasn't pretty much everybody calling for his head by the time the trade occurred?

[BrewCrewForever]

Yes it stinks that we traded Cruz and De La Rosa. But at the time they were traded they had contributed basically nothing to the major leagues. I think I am more upset with the Cruz trade then De La Rosa because Jorge really just did not seem to have it where Cruz had pretty much raked in the minors and got very little time to see what he could do for the big club. I think a brief September call up one year.

[Postseason2006]

Hard to point at guys who didn't show success until their age 28 season like 4 years after a trade and complain about the trade.

Yeah, I agree. Not many were complaining about losing either of those guys at the time.

Really? I was highly critical about giving up Cruz to have Nix included in that deal because I thought it was a poor deal to start with.

 

And De La Rosa was supposedly the main cog in the Sexson deal. I was not a fan of giving him up for Graffanino at the time. Regardless of when a person performs, is irrelevant to the value of a trade. Graffanino didn't take us anywhere. De La Rosa's great pitching last year was one of the main reasons the Rockies made the playoffs. But spin it anyway you feel. This is make or break year for Doug Melvin.

 

Another seaon with shoddy starting pitching and a sub .500 record, he will be walking out the door.

 

 

 

[pete]

Do all the people with the retro love for JDLR, want to keep Parra? Here, other forums, radio callers and even radio hosts just hate on the guy. Grandpa Simpson, uh, I mean Steve the Homer True on his show Weak Sauce Central thinks its confusing why anyone would keep him on the roster and thinks he should be given away just to be rid of him. "The Big Show" with Squeaky, the Fat Man and a Tigers fan on WSSP think Manny is a chump. And on and on.

 

 

 

Saying that Hardy should have been traded at some other time seems like Monday morning QBing. If his hitting turned around, Melvin would have been smart. There were rumors of him being shopped earlier. For all we know, what he was offered wasn't useful. When he talked about trading him after getting Gomez, he said he wanted a CF or a SP. In all likelihood, the SPs he was offered were more bottom of the rotation filler guys. Not many teams are moving middle of the order starters with decent contracts and a year or two left. Getting Gomez seems like a pretty good gamble to me. I know having great CF defense is something i like. Also moving Hardy a year or two earlier would mean a year or two less of Esco down the road.

 

 

 

I think he was clumsy setting up the starting rotation this Spring. It seems as if he was counting on someone being injured. Personally, I don't like soft tossing junk ballers. I'm sick of Dave Bush and never liked DD, but i don't mistake that preference for analysis. I read a lot of blogs and forums and DD was almost universally hailed as a smart signing while Wolf was almost universally panned as an overpay for a guy who is almost guaranteed to be injured. I'm really liking Wolf so far, but I guess we'll see.

[Invader3K]

The fact is JDLR didn't do anything special when he was a Brewer, and Cruz was basically blocked at the time. Neither were regarded as a stud prospect by that point. I'm sure a small minority were against their trades (Hey, Ben Hendrickson's dad screamed at me in a private chat that Cruz was the Brewers' best player at the time...maybe he was right???).

 

People forget that the point of a trade isn't to try and completely fleece the other team. Such occurrences are pretty rare in MLB. Yes, they can happen, but it's usually due to a player getting hurt or just woefully under-performing. The best trades usually help all clubs involved. You have to give to get, as they say. Cruz and JDLR were both seen as fairly expendable at the time, hence why neither are no longer with the Brewers. I don't think it's anything to complain about in regards to Melvin, nearly five years after the fact.

 

I agree with the assessment that if the team finishes under .500 this year, it's probably time to move on from Melvin. Sometimes a franchise just needs a change in direction.

[JJHardy7]

Cruz and JDLR were both seen as fairly expendable at the time, hence why neither are no longer with the Brewers.

 

Why was Cruz expendable?

[Fatter than Joey]

Regardless of when a person performs, is irrelevant to the value of a trade. Graffanino didn't take us anywhere.

 

I disagree with this -- When we had traded for Graffy, Koskie was hurt, JJ was just lost for the year, and Weeks had hurt his wrists... Our middle IF was decimated, and at that point in the season we were only a couple of games under .500. I think everyone at the time knew JDLR had a much higher ceiling than Graffy, however, I don't think DM wanted to have Barnwell finish out the season. I think this trade was "unfortunate" much in the same sense of having your plumbing back up on a weekend and having to pay 2xtime to get it fixed, but I certainly understand why DM made this trade.

 

Yeah, I agree. Not many were complaining about losing either of those guys at the time.

 

I disagree with this as well, Cruz definitely had a significant show of support on this board at the time of the trade. DM made some sort of statement that he could have traded Lee for Cordero, but included Cruz to get Mench and Nix. My guess is that DM didn't think Cruz would make it to MLB, and he would probably redo this trade had he the chance.

 

Cruz was basically blocked at the time.

 

Eh, if Cruz was blocked, why pick up Mench and Nix, 2 other OFers? I think DM boned up on Cruz.

 

Saying that Hardy should have been traded at some other time seems like Monday morning QBing.

 

No, this is not true. There was a ton of debate about trading Hardy, long before it happened... There were plenty of people that saw Escobar as the future SS, and thought trading Hardy in the off-season of 2008, would have been "selling high" on Hardy's stock. A lot of people correctly predicted that DM would drive Hardy's stock down handling him the way he was handled... I think criticism of DM, here is more than fair.

 

People forget that the point of a trade isn't to try and completely fleece the other team.

 

Agree 100%, and this is why I don't get too worked up about the JDLR trade... we needed a veteran IF to get us through the season.

[Invader3K]

Cruz and JDLR were both seen as fairly expendable at the time, hence why neither are no longer with the Brewers.

 

Why was Cruz expendable?

Because he wasn't seen as a starter and not used as a bench player much.

[joepepsi]

Yes, by all means let's look at the career minor leaguers who got away and four years later turned into good ballplayers for a couple seasons. But lets ignore the similar players that Melvin acquired who had similar career paths: McGehee, Turnbow, Pods, Clark, etc.

 

It would be a shame, but Melvin hasn't made a significant trade for a top of the rotation starter since JDLR, he's only acquired high floor/low ceiling type players since through both trades and FA.

I think the trade for CC came after JDLR, didn't it? Randy Wolf was considered the second best free agent pitcher on the market last winter and the smallest market in baseball was able to sign this die hard Californian to a Midwestern team.

 

Please cite examples of teams who did trade for top of the rotation starters under similar payroll restrictions. I can think of two trades, Garza and Kazmir that may qualify. Would you have supported trading the talent it would take to get these players? And four years later, when/if those players had good seasons with other teams would you still be satisfied or would you want Melvin fired for letting that talent go?

[pete]

Saying that Hardy should have been traded at some other time seems like Monday morning QBing.

 

No, this is not true. There was a ton of debate about trading Hardy, long before it happened... There were plenty of people that saw Escobar as the future SS, and thought trading Hardy in the off-season of 2008, would have been "selling high" on Hardy's stock. A lot of people correctly predicted that DM would drive Hardy's stock down handling him the way he was handled... I think criticism of DM, here is more than fair.

 

Yeah, there were some people, but there were plenty of downsides and who exactly do you think would have been netted? Saying that the team would have been better with what likely would have been a fifth starter and one less year of Escobar is the argument that is being made.

 

It's like the argument that Prince could be traded for a top of the rotation starter along with various treasures is great to condemn the guy, but it's probably fantasy.

[JJHardy7]

Because he wasn't seen as a starter and not used as a bench player much.

 

He only had 5 at bats with the Brewers...

 

http://www.thebaseballcub...rs/C/nelson-cruz-1.shtml

 

IIRC (which I may not) we had Jenkins there and Hart on his way...it's not like we had an elite proven player for the next several years that made Cruz expendable. I was disappointed that we didn't give him more of a shot.

 

I really liked JDLR as well, but he at least was given opportunities on the MLB level and didn't perform well.

[giffted1]

I was very disappointed with the De La Rosa trade when it happened. I could see a contending team trade an erratic lefty with a high ceiling for a utility infielder, but the Brewers weren't really in the race at that time. You don't trade a high ceiling guy like JDLR just to get a little closer to .500. Get some AAAA player to man second base for nothing.

 

However, if Melvin didn't make that trade, I doubt JDLR would be on our roster now. De La Rosa continued to struggle until some point in 2009 where the light seemed to go on for him.

Should we have kept De La Rosa when we weren't in the race? Yes.

Would/should De Le Rosa have been on the roster during 2008? No, we couldn't afford to keep a player on the 25 man who was still figuring things out at that time.

 

So while I didn't like the trade at the time, not trading him to KC would have just delayed the inevitable.

[Fatter than Joey]

Yeah, there were some people, but there were plenty of downsides and who exactly do you think would have been netted?

 

I am certain there was a point we could have traded Hardy for more than Gomez -- I really think there are many ways to look at the Hardy trade -- I just don't think it is fair to label it "MMQB" -- there was a ton of discussion way before the trade with the Twins.

 

Get some AAAA player to man second base for nothing.

 

They did that with Chris Barnwell. He was pretty awful.

[Thurston Fluff]

There were plenty of people that saw Escobar as the future SS, and thought trading Hardy in the off-season of 2008, would have been "selling high" on Hardy's stock. A lot of people correctly predicted that DM would drive Hardy's stock down handling him the way he was handled... I think criticism of DM, here is more than fair

 

That assumes Escobar's development wouldn't have been hurt by having him learn on the job in the majors. Would you rather have 6years of a major league ready Escobar or 2 years of him trying to learn on the fly and 4 of him playing at the level he will now? It also assumes Melvin should have known Hardy would tank it like he did. If he did then it stands to reason others would have as well. If that's the case then he wouldn't have got us any more of a return than he did.

I think he played the Hardy situation as well as he could have given the information he had to work with at the time. furthermore even if he knew what Hardy would turn out to be he may still have done the best thing for the teams future by keeping him and letting Escobar progress at his natural pace instead of forcing him into a role he was not ready to fill.

I agree with the assessment that if the team finishes under .500 this year, it's probably time to move on from Melvin. Sometimes a franchise just needs a change in direction.

 

While I can certainly respect this line of thinking I usually go with the philosophy that once you get competent people in place you keep them in place. The idea of change of direction is fine but if the team is going in the right direction changing it is not wise. There is something to be said for continuity/stability. Obviously you think if we are below .500 the direction isn't right. I sort of agree but think a guy who has proven he can rebuild 2 terrible franchises into playoff teams has shown he knows what he is doing. That doesn't just go away. I would look else where for the problem.

[brains and braun]

If I remember correctly, DM wasn't the only one who felt that JDLR was never going to figure it out as a Brewer.

[logan82]

At this point the only thing I would do is find someone else to hire managers.

[Teatoe993]

It took roughly 6 years since De Le Rosa made his Brewers debut to finally figure it out. Do we really expect Melvin to be that patient with someone. Are we willing to give Parra another 3-4 years of sucking to see if he'll reach his great potential?

I wasn't a fan of letting Cruz go but he was 26 at the time and out of minor league options I think. Plus Hart was homegrown and seemed to be the higher rated prospect at the time. In hindsight, I wouldn't have traded Cruz. But I can't call for his firing because of something like that.

[Thurston Fluff]

Plus Hart was homegrown and seemed to be the higher rated prospect at the time. In hindsight, I wouldn't have traded Cruz. But I can't call for his firing because of something like that.

 

While I agree in hindsight we shouldn't have traded Cruz I still think Hart is the better player. He's two years younger plays in a harder park to hit in and has a career .797 OPS to Cruz's .818. Not much of a difference in my mind. I think Hart's off season arbitration win has made him look a lot worse in people's eyes than he really is.

[benji]

I know I am jumping in late to this discussion, but shouldn't KC be the team that should be upset at losing JDLR? The Brewers gave him ample opportunity and he was very frustrating for me as a fan and I can't imagine how much as a manager/gen manager. I don't think it is fair to hit Melvin for this one. As someone mentioned above Melvin should be given credit for finding out current third baseman and several other players from the "scrap heap." Who knows Nelson Cruz could stink this year and Corey could go back to the all star performer. Does that make Melvin a genius again?

[trwi7]

Do all the people with the retro love for JDLR, want to keep Parra?

I do.

[Ennder]

Really? I was highly critical about giving up Cruz to have Nix included in that deal because I thought it was a poor deal to start with.

 

Mench and Nix where the throw ins. Cruz was an important part of the deal because Cordero had more value than Lee at the time.

 

Regardless the point is you won't find a GM in baseball that didn't let a few guys get away. That is why so many players end up with multiple teams before they even reach arbitration.