Why Do Some Want to Fire Melvin?

[trwi7]

I think Melvin just promoted Castro and asked Sveum if he wanted to come back. Randolph and Fischer were Macha hires IIRC.

[Postseason2006]

The mere fact we are paying for nearly all of Bill Hall's salary for guy that will never likely to break AA is pretty bad as far as I'm concerned. Not certain if anything was out there, but when we hear we're working on something, shouldn't mean that we got some guy that's 25 in A ball with no ability to find the plate.

[PeaveyFury]

The mere fact we are paying for nearly all of Bill Hall's salary for guy that will never likely to break AA is pretty bad as far as I'm concerned.

 

I think the fact that he got another team to pay ANY of Hall's salary when they could have had him in a few days and paid absolutely nothing. It's practically a 1.3 million gift.

[jeffy]

I think the fact that he got another team to pay ANY of Hall's salary when they could have had him in a few days and paid absolutely nothing. It's practically a 1.3 million gift.

 

How did it come to pass that they would have been able to get him for nothing in a few days? Was this due to Melvin's desperation moves that were aimed at saving himself, perhaps?

[PeaveyFury]

Was this due to Melvin's desperation moves that were aimed at saving himself, perhaps?

 

Or the strings that our owner decided to pull his influence in?

[jeffy]

That could be it too. If Melvin keeps his job after this debacle, we will certainly know that he was not told that he was in jeopardy. I guess that means that now Mark A has to fire Melvin, if he really wants to prove that it was not his meddling that led to the oddly timed DFA of Hall. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[tigerbrew]

This season is turning to be a disaster, yet there's no vent thread to let off steam. When steam builds up with nowhere to go, after some time it may explode.

[TooLiveBrew]

The mere fact we are paying for nearly all of Bill Hall's salary for guy that will never likely to break AA is pretty bad as far as I'm concerned.

 

But you're such an easy guy to please!

 

I really can't believe people expected a useful return on Bill Hall. Melvin maximized the monetary savings, so I can't be upset. It was a bad contract, though, so if you want to complain why not start with why Hall got his deal in the first place.

[Fatter than Joey]

I think the fact that he got another team to pay ANY of Hall's salary when they could have had him in a few days and paid absolutely nothing.

 

This is not true -- Any team that would have signed Hall would have given the Brewers salary relief of the league minimum -- which would have been prorated for this year and $400K for next year. Likely the Brewers would have gotten ~$500K for this.

 

Since Beltre has a testicular injury, the M's needed a 3b/IF -- there would have been no guarantee that Hall would have came to SEA, Hall could have had multiple teams interested in his services, so Jack Z had to pay a bit of a premium to ensure Hall ended up in SEA, which is where that other ~$800K comes in.

 

Now, ~$800K is better than a kick in the head, and DM certainly did get us something back, -- but I think you are giving him a bit too much credit -- Teams would NOT have been able to get Hall for "absolutely nothing", and there was probably enough interest in Hall that DM had some leverage in making a trade.

 

I really can't believe people expected a useful return on Bill Hall.

 

Agreed -- I think we made the best out of a bad situation. If Beltre didn't injure his testiculars, we probably would have gotten even less of a return.

 

It was a bad contract, though, so if you want to complain why not start with why Hall got his deal in the first place.

 

DFA Melvin.

[jeffy]

This is not true -- Any team that would have signed Hall would have given the Brewers salary relief of the league minimum -- which would have been prorated for this year and $400K for next year. Likely the Brewers would have gotten ~$500K for this.

 

What about the $500K buyout of 2011? If anyone wanted him that year, would they have had to pay at least $400K of that (or whatever the min is in 2011)? If so, then it seems that they maybe really got only $400K extra and a rental for the Manatees.

[JohnBriggs12]

Melvin needs to go as the minuses are outweighing the positives and after 7 seasons at the helm, the outlook going forward is frankly not very bright.

 

There is no young pitching on the horizon until late 2011 at the earliest and while there is a lot of blame to go around for that (scouting, farm director, minor league pitching coaches, etc), Melvin was in charge and for a small market team not to develop young pitching as the number one priority, that in itself is cause for dismissal. True, Melvin and Jack Z hit on a few everyday players, but Melvin stood pat and refused to deal any of them for pitching even when he had replacements ready to come up, and now several have seen their value in the market decline tremendously as is the case with Hardy who is now floundering in AAA.

 

Toss in 2 less than inspired choices for manager, 2 terrible large contracts (Hall and Suppan), and there's just no case that he should be brought back.

[brewizard]

Melvin briefly oversaw the Brewers renaissance, and then just as quickly ran the team into the ground. The Brewers are not going anywhere this season or next. Pretty much, it is over for Melvin in Milwaukee - which means the Brewers' playoff chances are pretty much over for another decade or more.

 

 

When the season is done, I'm thinking of finding a different team or a different sport to follow.

 

And I'm a diehard.

 

Dying for this team is getting harder to do. They just don't reward you for your dedication.

[DougJones43]

Yeah, last year was great and everything, but overall I'm very disappointed. The club seems to be in a decline again -- after 1 good year which came on the back of a rented mule that was only with the organization for a couple months. With all of the hype surrounding "the kids" starting a few years back, I was hoping for at least a Twins or A's type run of a collection of 90+ win seasons with multiple playoff appearances.

[JJHardy7]

While Butler may turn out, in the context of the Brewers being a contender in 2008 I think the Gross deal was a mistake. Yeah, they still made the playoffs, but who knows if the Brewers post-season fate would have been different if they didn't need to use Sabathia on the last day and could have unleashed a fully rested Sabathia in the playoffs. I'll never understand that move in the context of a contending team nearing the peak of their "success cycle". Making yourself worse in the shortterm isn't a good move in that situation.

Fair enough. I just don't know if it's fair to always play the 'what if' card. The Brewers still made the playoffs and may have Butler in the rotation for years. I don't think having Gross would mean the Brewers win the WS or anything like that. Your reasons are fair, but to call it a bad trade isn't fair IMO. Strange trading Gross? Sure, but I don't have anything against the trade. It's funny that some are upset about trading Gross, but at the same time he was trashed at this site a few times by some (I don't think it was by the same posters or anything like that). It's funny how things come full circle at times...

[Invader3K]

I was hoping for at least a Twins or A's type run of a collection of 90+ win seasons with multiple playoff appearances.

I agree...especially considering how the team is supposedly following the much lauded Twins/A's model of success, as opposed to being like the Marlins or something.

[Ennder]

We haven't been able to follow the twins/a's model until this season since we had no valuable commodities. Unfortunately this year went very poorly. Weeks getting hurt kills any value he has, Hardy having an off year really lowers his value and Hart's value isn't as high as it used to be either.

[brewizard]

Unfortunately this year went very poorly. Weeks getting hurt kills any value he has, Hardy having an off year really lowers his value and Hart's value isn't as high as it used to be either.

 

Combine that with the off-season disaster where the Brewers got no premium draft picks for losing CC and Sheets, I'd say the Twins/A's model is pretty much out-the-window. Attanasio must be suffering on so many investment fronts right now that I'd guess the Brewers glory days are behind us until - say - 2019.

 

Unless the scrap heap Gods somehow favor the Brewers this offseason...

[Invader3K]

I'd guess the Brewers glory days are behind us until - say - 2019.

 

OK, if that's not blatant hyperbole, I'd say you're being a bit pessimistic there.

 

Also, Attanasio's business (which none of us have any insight on whatsoever) doesn't affect what the Brewers do. It's not like he's paying for the payroll out of pocket.

[TheCrew07]

Actually the biggest difference between the Brewers and the A's/Twins has been the pitching, not the pieces available to move, every team has to start someplace. Each team had a couple of stud position players, but they built themselves on much better pitching and made more timely player moves than the Brewers have (with the exception of the Santana move which apparently Melvin didn't learn from).

 

The Brewers had every opportunity to match that, Melvin just hasn't been as aggressive, we didn't need to keep every player from Hart, Hardy, Weeks, and Hall to remain competitive. The Brewers could have easily parted with one or two of those players to acquire pitching in addition to getting better talent out of the Overbay trade from Toronto. Maybe the move for Sabathia wouldn't have been necessary and LaPorta could have been moved for a Sheets replacement... we'll never know what could have been done, only that nothing was done except making moves for rental players.

 

I've been very consistent in my approach and my posts... too many of us on this site have been obsessed with the handedness of the lineup and fixing holes in the lineup... missing the much larger problem that's always been looming. I say again this situation shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, even if all of the hitters would have performed the pitching would have been averagish at best and a "1 and done" in the playoffs has never interested me.

[DougJones43]

We haven't been able to follow the twins/a's model until this season since we had no valuable commodities.

Kind of goes to show that our farm system has not turned out even close to what it was hyped up to be. I pulled up the brewerfan Power 50 from September 2005. We were supposed to have one of the best farm systems (if not THE best) during that time period. Look at the list -- it's depressing how many of our top 20 prospects completely busted in one form or another. I count exactly three players that have become good major leaguers for the Brewers -- Fielder, Braun, and Gallardo. The only other one from that list to have success, Nelson Cruz, was traded for Kevin Mench.

 

Eveland, Hendrickson, Capellan, Sarfate, Krynzel, and Nelson all turned out to be trash. Parra faltered last year and has been awful this year. Corey Hart has turned out to be pretty disappointing overall as well.

[Invader3K]

DougJones makes a good point. I think it goes to show that it can be dangerous to become too enamored with prospects, especially your own team's. The burnout rate is just often too high.

[JJHardy7]

DougJones makes a good point. I think it goes to show that it can be dangerous to become too enamored with prospects, especially your own team's. The burnout rate is just often too high.

I would take that top 10 everyday of the week. We'd be very, very, very lucky if our top 10 was that good right now. I also don't think it's being 'enamored' with prospects. The Brewers should know their prospects better than any other team...and trade away players that don't project to be as good as others may think (ie Matt LaPorta). There no doubt is a burnout rate on prospects, but that should really only surprise casual fans. Guys like Escobar and Gamel will be good, but you just can't expect every top 10 prospect to become an all-star. I would definitely say that old top 10 list was much better than what we have now and a bit more 'solid'. That's not to say our top 10 stinks now, but there's more questions than answers IMO right now.

[DougJones43]

we didn't need to keep every player from Hart, Hardy, Weeks, and Hall to remain competitive. The Brewers could have easily parted with one or two of those players to acquire pitching...we'll never know what could have been done, only that nothing was done except making moves for rental players.

Very well put. Between all of those position players you listed, not swapping from a position of strength like that for any pitching talent until it was too late (now) is proving to be a big mistake. And Melvin's obsession (possibly driven by Mark A.) with always getting back "Major League" players has been part of the downfall as well. It's not necessarily that we didn't have talent to move. It's that we moved talent like LaPorta, Carlos Lee, Nelson Cruz, and others for "rental" players like Sabathia, Cordero, Mench, and Linebrink. Granted, two of those players played very well, but they were all with the team for 1.5 years or much less.

[JJHardy7]

Very well put. Between all of those position players you listed, not swapping from a position of strength like that for any pitching talent until it was too late (now) is proving to be a big mistake. And Melvin's obsession (possibly driven by Mark A.) with always getting back "Major League" players has been part of the downfall as well. It's not necessarily that we didn't have talent to move. It's that we moved talent like LaPorta, Carlos Lee, Nelson Cruz, and others for "rental" players like Sabathia, Cordero, Mench, and Linebrink. Granted, two of those players played very well, but they were all with the team for 1.5 years or much less.

You raise some good points. It'd be nice to trade for more minor league guys, but at the same time they may never pan out and it's difficult to find guys that will without giving up a lot...especially if trading for a guy that the team already likes. In other words, DM said Gamel and Escobar wouldn't be traded. I know that wasn't 100% set in stone, but do you think the Brewers would give them up for 'fair' value? What even is 'fair' value for those guys? I guess my point is it's hard to find minor league guys that you can trade for in a 'fair' trade that will pan out. It's more likely that the organization your trading with knows a lot more about the player than other teams.

That being said I agree 100% on trading guys when their value is high. It's easier to 'sell' potential on guys than it is to sell a guy's ability after he's been in the bigs a few seasons.

[brewizard]

Also, Attanasio's business ... doesn't affect what the Brewers do. It's not like he's paying for the payroll out of pocket.

 

The bottom line. Attendance will be off after this season. That's my guess based on my own feelings about the team right now. That, and the economy. The Brewers' cupboard is bare. It has been proven to be empty of the main ingredient for success - pitching. Trading Hardy and/or Hart and/or Weeks as damaged goods this offseason isn't going to net enough MLB quality pitching to balance with the offense. And Melvin's happy hunting grounds, the scrap heap, isn't going to produce it either. (Gosh, this situation reminds me so much of Melvin's Texas years.)

 

The best way to fix the pitching is drafting. That takes time, patience and luck. The Brewers probably can't do that in time before both Fielder and Braun are gone.

 

The Brewers' window is closing. Heck, it may already be closed and I'm still deluding myself. This is a 'fire Melvin' thread and it has gone 22 pages!

 

I wasn't joking. I think 2019 is optimistic based on the cycle of rebuilding if/once Melvin is fired...