Why Do Some Want to Fire Melvin?

[Invader3K]

I do think the idea that Melvin should have had the clairvoyance to trade Hardy and/or Hart is a bit misguided. You can argue that he should have done more to acquire better pitching, and if that meant dealing either of those to, then so be it. But to say he should have known both would have such down years is just arm chair quarterbacking after the fact. According to the statheads on here, Hardy was worth way more than his current salary...so why trade him after such a great year? People would have been screaming if they tried to make Escobar the starting shortstop and he struggled early. No one knew Counsell would have such a tremendous rebound year, either. As far as trading Hart, that would have just opened up another gap in the outfield. Hart basically only had a couple rough months last year, but overall was a very good player.

 

And yes, the repeated calls for trading for a young starting pitcher are kind of tiresome. Like fondy said, teams just don't trade those kinds of pitchers much anymore. Maybe because they are sick of giving out Jeff Suppan type contracts.

[joepepsi]

How exactly was Melvin suppose to know that Hardy was going to suck so much this year. f Hardy repeated his success in 2009 his trade value would have been even higher than after 2008. Melvin also probably wasn't comfortable having Escobar as the opening day SS.

 

A good GM would have known.

 

How many young power arms actually got traded this past offseason? I can't imagine there were too many and their is a reason for that. Teams don't trade that type of talent. You can fault Melvin all you want for failing to draft quality pitching but you can hardly fault him for not trading for young pitching talent because it is damn near impossible to acquire unless you are trading a CC Sabathia or the like, not Hardy or Hart.

You're hitting on the reasons why this topic bugs me. It's legitimate to discuss the good and bad of what Melvin has done, but this topic if full of posts that speculate what he could have done but maybe, possibly didn't. Hardy would have brought young power arms. Hart for Greinke. Re-sign CC. The argument that Melvin should have done these moves assumes they were possible and available and he must have just been lazy or stupid.

 

Doug isn't scared of trading players or signing free agents. I am sure he entertains offers and has discussions on nearly every player in the organization. Most likely he didn't hear any offers that he felt would improve the team.

[Invader3K]

Yep...and the calls for trading for a Greinke or Cain are particularly nerving. Great pitchers, both young and relatively cheap...yeah, clearly SF or KC would be dying to unload either one, right?

[jhart05]

Wow I like the last couple of posts. I was just about to post something along those lines.

 

Look around the league, what team out there isn't looking for more pitching?

 

"Trade Hart for some pitching." What do you think a team is going to give you for Hart? We all remember what he did in September last year. Was that because he got tired down the stretch or because he couldn't handle the pressure of a pennant race? Either way, what do you think a team is going to give you for that? They sure aren't going to hand over their #2 starter.

 

Besides how can we sit here and say Melvin didn't try to shop Hardy or Hart around for some pitching?

 

I don't understand why people think it's just so easy to go out and trade for some pitching.

[TheCrew07]

How exactly was Melvin suppose to know that Hardy was going to suck so much this year. f Hardy repeated his success in 2009 his trade value would have been even higher than after 2008. Melvin also probably wasn't comfortable having Escobar as the opening day SS.

 

How many young power arms actually got traded this past offseason? I can't imagine there were too many and their is a reason for that. Teams don't trade that type of talent. You can fault Melvin all you want for failing to draft quality pitching but you can hardly fault him for not trading for young pitching talent because it is damn near impossible to acquire unless you are trading a CC Sabathia or the like, not Hardy or Hart.

To your first statement, you aren't understanding the concept, the idea was Hardy was valuable and we needed pitching, not that he would stink and now he's replaceable.

 

To your second statement, Edwin Jackson? It's not even about last off season, it's about not addressing a glaring need over the course of DM's tenure as GM. He got us to respectable in a hurry, but he's not going to get us to the next level if he doesn't become more aggressive.

 

edit. Forgot to add, Hardy's trade value wouldn't have gone up regardless, it was going down because the closer he gets to FA the more expensive he gets and the less service time a team trading for him gets.

[bklynbrewcrew]

I never once said that Melvin should have known that Hardy and Hart would lose value. What I did say was that we had a huge need for pitching and we had decisions to make as to how to acquire said pitching. With JJ being close to free agency we needed to decide whether to sign Hardy long term and trade Escobar or trade JJ. Now JJ is that much closer to free agency so his value is automatically going to be lower whether or not he had a bad season. As for Hart he was easily replaceable within a deep free agency outfield market. I cant believe Matt Joyce had more value to Tampa Bay than Corey Hart would have. There is a better than good chance that Hart could have been traded for Edwin Jackson.

 

Melvin knew we had enough offense to win but we desperately needed pitching. You cant go on forever filling your staffs full of the Suppans and Loopers of the world. Even now when Melvin speaks he talks about how losing Suppan and Bush to injury really hurt our chances. My response to that is losing Suppan is not exactly a loss when he is essentially a replacement level starter at this point and losing Bush should destroy the teams playoff chances either. Melvin has neglected pitching for far too long so it should really be no surprise that we are essentially a .500 team in a lousy league. This rotation was lousy to begin the season so why should anyone be surprised when guys like Suppan and Looper do not pitch well.

[Baldkin]

Well, the Brewers were in first place before they lost 3 starters to ineffectiveness and injuries.

Its not Bush, Looper and Suppan that are the problem, its 2 of the 3 of them getting hurt, and Parra getting much worse.

Manny Parra has an ERA 2 runs higher and has pitched below replacement level. He was supposed to be our #2 or #3 starter... and he's been the worst pitcher on the staff. Clearly, we should've traded HIM in the offseason too.

 

The only deal I heard about for young power arms in the off season was Fielder for Cain, and even then it was thought that SF would want more than just Prince.

Hart or Hardy were not going to get Matt Cain or Zach Grinke so can we just drop those thoughts?

 

The pitching staff hasn't just underperformed, its gotten injured, and its been terrible. Can you really blame that on Doug Melvin? When 2 guys who have never really gotten hurt in their careers both go down for over a month?

As for Looper, he's pitched about where I expected him to, his ERA is 5.03 right now, the only thing that's disturbing is his HR's given up.

Suppan's ERA is 5.23, it was down to 4.43 before he pitched 2 games while he was hurt and gave up 15 runs in 8 2/3.

 

If you want to fault Melvin, that's fine, but in reality, the team has been hugely unlucky with their pitching staff this year, and this team cannot afford to carry 7 or 8 starting pitchers like the Red Sox can.

[bklynbrewcrew]

This team has not been unlucky at all. There are plenty of teams that have had more injuries than the Brewers. Suppan is just a bad pitcher so him getting injured was not exactly a huge loss. Bush getting hurt doesnt help but Dave Bush is not exactly Tim Lincecum. Losing Bush should not mean the difference between contending and falling apart as we have.

 

We can argue this back and forth forever but I just dont see how anyone can defend how Melvin has put together this pitching staff.

[ilovebeer]

Melvin has done a pretty good job this year, i do think he wasted to much on cc and should have kept Russell. i am glad we he didn't trade Gamel or esabar, sometimes the best trade is not to make one.

[Ennder]

We failed by not developing pitching. Trading for pitching is fine and all but it is extremely hard to do. When you only develop 1(2 if Parra pans out) major league quality SP over a 6 year period it is really hard to have a long history of success.

 

The last home grown pitcher we had that was worth anything was Ben Sheets in 2000. Between 2000 and 2006 we just developed nothing and we have nothing at AAA right now.

 

If you have to point a finger at just one person I'm pointing it squarely at Jack Z and whoever else was in charge of these things the past 10 years or so. If anything I give Melvin credit for putting up a relatively decent rotation most seasons with almost nothing to work with.

[JJHardy7]

Gabe Gross to Rays for Josh Butler
Boy, is Gabe Gross missed in 2009. If the Brewers don't make this deal, they don't need to deal for Gerut. F.

You do know that Butler was putting together a pretty good year before he was injured, right? The deal didn't look good last year, but if Butler ends up in Milwaukee sooner rather than later as a starter...I think this is a pretty nice trade.

[Postseason2006]

The David Weathers trade is paying off dividends. Hiring a coach to use one of your best BP pitchers in a 9 run blowout and bringing Weathers in yesterday. Every time the Brewers have a chance to get back over .500, they do the same thing a Ned run team did.

[RobertR]

While Butler may turn out, in the context of the Brewers being a contender in 2008 I think the Gross deal was a mistake. Yeah, they still made the playoffs, but who knows if the Brewers post-season fate would have been different if they didn't need to use Sabathia on the last day and could have unleashed a fully rested Sabathia in the playoffs. I'll never understand that move in the context of a contending team nearing the peak of their "success cycle". Making yourself worse in the shortterm isn't a good move in that situation.

 

I'll pile on on the Davis deal too. Frankly, I think Melvin is lucky that Eveland has been frustrating. It's never a good idea to deal the best player in a deal and the youngest player in a deal to get a couple of journeymen with some significant issues of their own.

 

I'm going to defend Melvin on the Lee deal. Yeah, closers are generally overvalued, but Cordero was very good for the Brewers and did net them some compensation.

 

Still, I agree that the overall issue with the team stems from an inability to scout and develop pitching from within. Forget the first round busts, the Brewers have to be one of the few teams that hasn't developed a legitimate starter from the third round and lower. The lack of depth in development says that whatever they're doing in seeking out pitchers needs an overhaul.

 

Robert

[trwi7]

Cordero was very good for the Brewers and did net them some compensation.

Lee netted the Rangers compensation too, so it's not like we were the only ones to get it.

[Postseason2006]

Again, the problem was Cordero was pitching poorly in Texas plus lost the closers job. Melvin gave up an All Star left fielder for unequivalent talent. Then he wanted Nix to give up Cruz.

 

The compensation we would've received for Lee would've have been one year sooner which also could've been guys far developed than Dykstra and Evan.

[Invader3K]

Cordero had one really bad month with Texas that year (April) and lost the closer's job. After that he was very good. The signs were there that he was still a very effective reliever if you look below the surface numbers.

[Ennder]

Again, the problem was Cordero was pitching poorly in Texas plus lost the closers job. Melvin gave up an All Star left fielder for unequivalent talent. Then he wanted Nix to give up Cruz.

 

Cordero had a mild injury that caused him to get off to a slow start that year. It was also trading a partial season of Lee for more than a full season of Cordero so I really fail to see what the big deal is. Sure Cruz is having a good year this year but we are talking about 3 years later and pitchers have started to find holes in his swing so his stats have not stayed all star calibre. I'm guessing his .263/.328/.526 line over his last 78 games is probably the reality for him. Good stats but not amazing given the park he is playing in.

[RobertR]

Cordero was an All Star with the Brewers. Yeah, I'd rather have an All Star position player than an All Star closer, but with the way Turnbow imploded and the internal options the Brewers had on had to deal with the Lee departure, there's a good argument that the move was a net plus. Or at most a mild overpay with some quibbling. Heck, maybe if Yost had managed his bullpen better the team might not have blown a sizable lead and made the playoffs in 2007 with Cordero. 2007 was part of the Brewers window just as much as 2009.

 

Robert

[logan82]

The Brewers missed tying for the division lead by one at bat in 2007. Cordero gave up a HR to Ramirez. If the starting pitching does better, our bullpen doesn't get worn out. The bullpen being worn out wasn't Yost's fault anymore than the bullpen being worn out this year is Macha's fault.

[Buckylovesbeer]

I normally wouldnt be on the fire Melvin bandwagon just yet.....but.....

 

Melvin should step in and try to give MR some more starts at catcher. Enough with all the love for J Kendall

[Invader3K]

Kendall is hitting in the neighborhood of .215 this month, and .230 on the year. Enough is enough.

[TooLiveBrew]

No way -- Ken Macha's managing to keep his job, so he HAS to play Kendall!

[Postseason2006]

Cordero had one really bad month with Texas that year (April) and lost the closer's job. After that he was very good. The signs were there that he was still a very effective reliever if you look below the surface numbers.

Cordero was also the main culprit the Brewers lost to the Cubs in 2007. If he doesn't implode on the road, the Brewers would've won the division. Can't have it both ways.

[Invader3K]

I don't think you can blame the Brewers' implosion squarely on one reliever, closer or not.

[Ennder]

Cordero had one really bad month with Texas that year (April) and lost the closer's job. After that he was very good. The signs were there that he was still a very effective reliever if you look below the surface numbers.

Cordero was also the main culprit the Brewers lost to the Cubs in 2007. If he doesn't implode on the road, the Brewers would've won the division. Can't have it both ways.

This is about the weakest comment I've seen on these boards. Lee would have likely cost the team at least 2-3 wins with his horrible OF defense as well, can't blame a season on one single blown save.