Why Do Some Want to Fire Melvin?

[Ennder]

How can you say Melvin has done well when this years team sucks. Jack Z built the Brewers, and should have been promted to GM after 2007

 

The biggest flaw with the current setup of the Brewers is the complete lack of pitching prospects. If you are going to make a statement like this you need to put the blame squarely on Jack Z and not Melvin.

 

To be honest I think Jack Z is a bit overrated. We had a ton of early picks and they turned into mostly good players but with a lot of misses too and he has mostly struck out on drafting pitchers which are the backbone of the team.

[TheCrew07]

Many posts in this topic criticize Melvin for not locking up players pre-arbitration. Many other posts criticize him for doing just that. If retrospect means you can have it both ways, then I guess he is a terrible GM.

Since when were Turnbow, Clark, Helms, and Kolb top prospects? Those guys weren't impact players and those are the players we've been arguing to lock up going forward, and a player like Fielder that should have been offered immediately after his rookie season. No we don't know if Fielder would have taken the offer, but given his tax troubles and the fact the he was 5 years from FA he might have jumped at the idea then. Once players start going through arbitration they have very little incentive to sign a deal.

 

I've been very consistent in that I've never had much use for Billy Hall and I've posted such under both user names I've used, it didn't matter if the debate was Hall vs Hardy or Hall vs Weeks... Hall was the player I wanted to move because I've never liked his game and I've always felt he was flash over substance going all they way back to my posts in 2004. So while DM's heart was in the right place, I didn't champion the signing at the time because Hall is just not the type of player I would want to build around. Hall is a great athlete playing baseball, not a baseball player who happens to be a great athlete.

 

Once again I say the issue isn't how to build an average rotation any more, DM did a great job turning around the franchise. The question now is how do we get to the next level? If he was building for a playoff appearance only, then he nailed it, but if he's been building for a championship appearance then he's missed his mark by a wide margin. I firmly believe that playoff baseball is about pitching and defense because most teams that make it to the post season have an upper tier offense. He acquired 2 SP since 2003 with significant talent, JDLR in 2003, and Sabathia who was only a rental last season. That's it.. I remember being excited that we picked up a #1 draft pick when we acquired Jackson in the Overbay trade. My enthusiasm lasted about a week, then I started looking closely at his numbers and his scouting reports and to this day my thought is, "that's it?". I was still alright with the deal because I was happy just to have a competitive rotation, but when when I started looking past just being competitive my opinion of the deal has become very negative as my attitude towards pitching has changed.

 

X nailed it... Melvin grabs hard throwers off the scrap heap for relief, but he mostly trades for soft tossing control pitchers for the rotation... V

[bklynbrewcrew]

Unless we can get Dan ODowd from Colorado who is in the last year of his contract I believe I would keep Melvin. Melvin has done a good job for the most part and there isnt anyone out there who is a sure thing. I would hate to fire Melvin and hire the next Dean Taylor or Sal Bando.

 

Yes Melvin has done a bad job with the pitching and in picking managers but I fear his replacement would be far worse.

[Never Outhustled]

The biggest flaw with the current setup of the Brewers is the complete lack of pitching prospects. If you are going to make a statement like this you need to put the blame squarely on Jack Z and not Melvin.

What was Z supposed to do, pass on Braun or Fielder to take a lesser pitcher? He hasn't made a 1st round mistake since Jones in 2001, and thats only because Jones got hurt. Your forgetting that Melvin traded 3 of Z's picks, including a 1st rounder, to get CC. Without that we'd have 0 good seasons in the Melvin era.

 

Z provided 4 All-stars plus Weeks, along with 2/5ths of our rotation including an Ace caliber pitcher in Gallardo, who did better than that since 2000? Only 2 teams have produced alot of home grown pitchers from the draft, San Fran and Minnesota. The years Minnesota hit on pitchers they had a slew of extra picks, and also completely whiffed on pitchers too. San Fran looks great because of Lincecom, and they picked ahead of us that year.

 

Some teams get pitching from Latin America, but it was Melvins decision to close our academy their and use that money for our major league payroll, where he has consistently wasted money on bad pitching.

 

When you consider Melvin could have traded Cory Hart for Greinke mid-season last year or for Edwin Jackson this past offseason, the blame of our lack of pitching falls squarely on the shoulders of Melvin.

[sgtcluels]

The fear of another Sal Bando shouldn't cripple us to not look for alternative leaders. I guess that's why there is such a high incumbent rate of reelection in the US.

 

I doubt MA would be afraid to fire a Sal Bando.

[Ennder]

When you consider Melvin could have traded Cory Hart for Greinke mid-season last year or for Edwin Jackson this past offseason, the blame of our lack of pitching falls squarely on the shoulders of Melvin.

 

These deals were rumors at best though, Melvin could have traded Kendall for Lincecum too I'm sure. We don't know what deals he could have done and people just always assume they aren't trying to trade for pitching.

[The Truth]

Alot of the criticism here is warranted, though I do think the Butler-Gross trade was great for the Brewers.

 

Melvin should get alot of credit for the very club friendly long-term contract Ryan Braun signed. That was huge for the Brewers franchise.

[Postseason2006]

The biggest flaw with the current setup of the Brewers is the complete lack of pitching prospects. If you are going to make a statement like this you need to put the blame squarely on Jack Z and not Melvin.

Then why didn't Melvin deal Hardy before the season and go with Escobar. It's hard to fathom him putting up an OBP in the .650's like Hardy. Then throw in the fact that Escobar can at least run.

 

And why are people still trying to defend the Lee deal mentioning the picks for Cordero. If Lee walks like he did from texas, we would've had a year sooner compensation. At least those two players might have been a lot close to helping this organization than Dystra and Kelly Wuensch Part Deux. And considering the Dodgers and Angels were after Lee that year, the Brewers should've went after a young pitching prospect. What GM takes Mench in a deal when he already had Hart on the bench? Just ridiculous.

 

And logic also tells us that Lee was an All-Star who was having a solid season that year. Melvin did not sell high.

 

Melvin should get alot of credit for the very club friendly long-term contract Ryan Braun signed. That was huge for the Brewers franchise.

He also should've been canned by Mark when he made those knee-jerk comments on Braun. How many teams are ahead of the Brewers in ERA, complete games, and quality starts?

 

BTW, is it Jack Z's fault Jeffress can't lay off the pot?

 

He's had some misses. Who made the call on Rodgers that years? There were other players I liked and I certainly didn't like the mere fact they had to mess with his mechanics at all.

[logan82]

Brew Crew Ball looks at what would have happened if we signed CC. Link

 

Basically we would have been slightly better than the Cubs right now and still 4 games behind the Cardinals. All of this with very little payroll flexibility.

[Postseason2006]

That's all great but did they factor in how much less the BP would've been used? I mean they(Milwaukee) have one complete game. CC lead the majors last year.

 

The biggest problem strapping the Brewers is salaries tied up to Suppan, Hall, and Riske.

[RU Rah Rah]

I guess I find it hard to argue with his moves (or lack thereof) up to July 7, 2008. Although there were some clear missteps along the way, he helped to lift the franchise out of the semi-perpetual doldrums and into a place where it could contend for (and actually make!) the playoffs. That's a considerable accomplishment. However, the past year-plus has not seemed especially good. His failure to put together a viable starting rotation for this year was just inexcusable.

 

Overall, the bottom line (in terms of wins and losses and rear ends in the seats at MP) has been vastly better under Melvin. That isn't to say, though, that I feel good about the team's chances in '09 or '10 (which I fear might be a complete disaster, given the disarray of the current rotation).

[Postseason2006]

Tonight's move...having a coach bat another promising rookie in the 9 hole. Unreal...Does anyone know Mark A.'s address or email one? This insanity has to end.

[zzzmanwitz]

Tonight's move...having a coach bat another promising rookie in the 9 hole. Unreal...Does anyone know Mark A.'s address or email one? This insanity has to end.

 

I have no problem with this, i guess. It is actually statistically the correct play. However, the rest of the lineup isn't set up correctly for this move. I really believe the only reason Macha is doing it is to rub it in the face of Melvin for making him play Escobar.

[tigerbrew]

I think Melvin won't be fired this year or next. He signed a three year extension keeping him here till 2012, doesn't make sense for MA to fire him and eat his contract for the next 3 years.

[Postseason2006]

Mike Sherman got an extension from Ted Thompson when he was hired.

[Godspeed]

Then why didn't Melvin deal Hardy before the season and go with Escobar. It's hard to fathom him putting up an OBP in the .650's like Hardy. Then throw in the fact that Escobar can at least run.

Disregarding the fact that rushing Escobar up from AA burns an extra year of the Brewer's control in his prime, shame on Doug Melvin for not having the clairvoyance to predict Hardy's utter collapse.

And logic also tells us that Lee was an All-Star who was having a solid season that year. Melvin did not sell high.

Funny how the guy with the username of 'Postseason2006' is angry about not getting longterm prospects in the deal for Lee.

BTW, is it Jack Z's fault Jeffress can't lay off the pot?

Let me guess, it's Melvin's?

[Postseason2006]

So who's fault is it that we have one of the worst pitching staffs in baseball? Seems to me, you like to keep making excuses for the 'Stache.

 

Again, you trade players at a high to get value. The Brewers had very little starting pitching coming back and with Yo getting worked like he is doesn't bode well for the future. Hardy was easily the most obvious player to be traded because of the pitching and the players below him, no? I don't think it was that hard to figure this out.

 

Again not to beat the Carlos Lee to death but it was lousy still no matter how you spin it because keeping him would've made more sense because of the compensation A factor.

[trwi7]

Disregarding the fact that rushing Escobar up from AA burns an extra year of the Brewer's control in his prime

 

Who said Escobar had to be promoted? He could've stayed in the minors and we could've gone with a stop gap like Counsell or Izturis. Not that either option would be ideal, but it's not like a Gallardo, Parra, Bush, Suppan, Looper rotation is ideal either and at least we had a replacement knocking on the major league door for Hardy.

 

shame on Doug Melvin for not having the clairvoyance to predict Hardy's utter collapse.

 

Not that you could predict a collapse this bad, but his BABIP was the highest it had been in his career by 26 points and his line drive rate has gone done every year he's been in the league down to 15.5% last year. That dropped to 13.3% this year. So let's not act like there weren't signs of at least some regression. Plus, if you weren't going to get value last year, when were you? He either hits well this year and still is only one year from free agency lowering his value or he sucks, you send him down and at most get another year but his value is lowered again because he got sent to the minors. Last year was the perfect time to sell, even if we had to take a little bit of a step back.

 

Funny how the guy with the username of 'Postseason2006' is angry about not getting longterm prospects in the deal for Lee.

 

I'm still pissed off about it. That was a joke of a trade. An all-star outfielder for the same guy except he couldn't hit outside of Texas, a closer, a minor league soft tosser who never made it out of A ball and a minor league outfielder for a much better outfielder and the better minor league outfielder. We got jobbed in that. All because Melvin thought we were still in it.

[Godspeed]

Disregarding the fact that rushing Escobar up from AA burns an extra year of the Brewer's control in his prime

 

Who said Escobar had to be promoted?

Uh, the guy I quoted.

[trwi7]

Uh, the guy I quoted.

That's fine. It still doesn't mean that Escobar had to be the starting SS for the Brewers if Hardy was traded.

[bklynbrewcrew]

I mentioned this in another thread but I am really starting to believe that Melvin has a fatal flaw in how he puts together a pitching staff. In his entire career as a GM Melvin has too often relied on soft tossers with little to no upside to anchor his staffs. In Texas he had the likes of Burkett, Helling and Sele and now with the Brewers he is relying on the likes of Suppan and Looper. Other than Gallardo has Melvin ever developed or traded for young power arms with the upside of a 1 or 2 starter? You can argue for Parra but he just hasnt shown me the consistency necessary to say he will ever become that 1 or 2.

 

Melvin held onto Hart one year too long for sure and last offseason was the time to detemine the SS position for the future; that meant either signing Hardy long term and trading Escobar or trading JJ. Now I definitely didnt expect JJ to have a terrible year but last offseason was the time to say JJ you are the future and Escobar is the bait for the young power arm we desperately needed or trade JJ for that young arm. Now it is one year later and JJ has really hurt his value big time. I fear that Melvin will now have to trade Gamel to get that young arm when he could have had it for Hardy or Hart last offsason.

 

We cannot go into next season with a rotation of Gallardo, Parra, Bush, Suppan and either Davis or Washburn. If that turns out to be the case 2010 will be just like this season.

[JohnBriggs12]

bklynbrewcrew wrote:

 

We cannot go into next season with a rotation of Gallardo, Parra, Bush, Suppan and either Davis or Washburn. If that turns out to be the case 2010 will be just like this season.

You're missing the real mistake Melvin made. True, he didn't get enough pitching, but pitching is hard to come by. The inconsistent offense of 2008 that was barely enough to get in the playoffs with Sabathia was certainly not going to be enough to overcome what we all saw as a mediocre pitching staff. Not only did he need to deal either Hardy, Hart or even Cameron (3 of the most inconsistent hitters) or a combination of the 3, he needed to go out and add another bat that was more consistent and capable of better overall production. Abreu went very cheaply. Given Hall's contract, he had no choice but to give him one more chance. Next year they won't have that issue.

 

Next years pitching staff will look a lot like this years. They may swap out Looper for another arm. They may add a pitcher in a deal, but basically it is what it is. They need to concentrate on putting a better overall offensive team on the field. Find a way to have both Lopez and Weeks in the lineup. Upgrade the catching position by letting Kendall go. Don't look at a stat like being 5th in runs scored and think that's enough. It cleary was not going to be enough given the pitching.

[Invader3K]

I sort of agree with you. I think Melvin and Co. need to take a hard look at whether or not they can upgrade the pitching significantly (ie. do more than adding another Looper/Suppan type starter). If the answer is a realistic "no", they should add a Bobby Abreu or Adam Dunn, or someone like that. Trying to keep Lopez isn't a bad idea either, but with how well he's been playing, I'm not sure the Brewers will be able to afford him.

 

They'll also have to do their annual bullpen restructuring as well.

[bklynbrewcrew]

The offense is not the problem. Adam Dunn is not gonna make this a playoff team as long as we are running the likes of Suppan and Looper out there. Melvin needed to acquire young power arms last offseason and erred big time by waiting too long to trade JJ and or Hart. Now Doug will either sell low on JJ or be forced to trade Gamel which will be a huge mistake.

[fondybrewfan]

How exactly was Melvin suppose to know that Hardy was going to suck so much this year. f Hardy repeated his success in 2009 his trade value would have been even higher than after 2008. Melvin also probably wasn't comfortable having Escobar as the opening day SS.

 

How many young power arms actually got traded this past offseason? I can't imagine there were too many and their is a reason for that. Teams don't trade that type of talent. You can fault Melvin all you want for failing to draft quality pitching but you can hardly fault him for not trading for young pitching talent because it is damn near impossible to acquire unless you are trading a CC Sabathia or the like, not Hardy or Hart.