Low Point of the Season

[MNBrew]

I don't buy that the team isn't this bad given they are 19-30 since June 1st. The pitching has landed in the ocean of reality and the team is going down with them.

You don't have to buy it. But the 26-11 stretch (or whatever those great numbers were) was not a total mirage, either.

 

The team is just plain average . . . . It has the potentially to be not only devastatingly good, but also this putrid (19-30 since June 1st, as you point out). It just seems they're this horrible -- and rightly so -- since they're playing bad enough to easily lose 2 out of every 3 games right now.

 

All that said, emotionally, I'm right on the ledge, too, because 85% of everything I see about the pitching staff (Yo & Hoffman being the exceptions for the most part) tell me the sky is falling -- quite hard & quite fast!

[Jay Zahn]

With pitching this bad, and nothing on the horizon, realistically how much hope is there for next year?

 

Actually quite a bit. Gamel will be the fulltime 3B (imho), one of Escobar/Hardy will be gone in a deal to bring in cost-controlled young(ish) SP, Weeks will be back, Bush will be back, Angel Salome could very well be the regular catcher (ridding the offense of its main black hole), Gallardo/Prince/Braun/rest of the youthful core will have one more year of experience, Cameron may well be back at good value. And of course the Cubs & Cards will be another year older.

 

The fact that people are completely ignoring things that are out of Melvin's control this season (like injuries to Weeks/Bush, & injuries to almost literally every SP target the Brewers conceivably had on the trade market) is appalling to me. I guess Melvin's just the lightning rod this year since Yost is gone. Thank goodness Mark Attanasio has his head on straight & seems to have full faith in Melvin.

Current manager prefers Counsell to Gamel at third base.

Weeks has had multiple serious injuries now and can't be regarded as a sure thing.

We have no idea if Bush will be effective again.

The cupboard is evidently bare for immediate pitching help for the minors.

As of right now the pitchers who are likely to be back next year who have made a positive contribution this year are Gallardo, Coffey, Stetter, and DiFelice. Parra will need to make a comeback. Villanueva will need to make a comeback. McClung will need to make a comeback. Bush will need to make a comeback. Some of those might pitch better, some of those might never pitch well again. Any of the effective four I mentioned could slip back too - or they might continue to be effective. Hardy might bring in an arm or two, and that's it. In the bullpen I might be willing to take a chance, but in the rotation how excited can I be about Parra, Bush, and Suppan coming back? They'll have to come up with someone just to replace Looper. Again as I've pointed out there is apparently nothing pitchingwise waiting in the wings. Hardy will need to be traded just to provide decent depth.

[Ennder]

Yes this team is all 6 ERA pitchers obviously, historical stats suggesting otherwise are just useless crap...

 

The rotation isn't great but it isn't this bad either.

[dlk9s]

I love the continued complaints about Counsell. Guess what - he's been one of the best players on the team this year. Hitting .296 with a .363 OBP and solid defense at three infield positions. I know some will say, "But he can't keep it up all year." Well, he has, and he's done it for more games than there are games left. Sure, I look forward to Gamel being the full time 3B (or wherever he ends up), but he wasn't very good at the plate in his stint in the bigs this season (not enough consistent playing time, I know) and there's nothing wrong with him staying in Nashville until September call-ups so he can continue to work on his game.

[Ennder]

To be fair I really blame tonight on Macha more than anyone. I was at the game and there were boos coming down as soon as Dunn was up to bat and Suppan was still in there, it was obvious to most that he was struggling and they had the heart of the lineup facing Suppan the 3rd time and should have seen him replaced. Then after he walked Dunn there were more boos because he wasn't removed. He got johnson to K on a marginal called strike and then willingham came up and hit the grand slam. At that point everyone wanted Suppan out and he was near 100 pitches but he got the next guy out on a hard hit fly ball.

 

Then the next inning we rallied and they brought up Suppan to bunt in a game where we were down 3 and he was gonna face the other team for a 4th time the next inning, Macha was assinine enough to leave him in there to bunt of all things which very well may have cost us a run and we managed to score a few to make it 6 to 5. He leaves Suppan out there and he proceeds to walk a guy, get a sac from the pitcher, give up a single, give up a double and IBB a guy, at this point it is just absurd that he is still in of course and they finally replace him after the game is basically over.

 

Suppan faced not 1 too many hitters, not two too many, not 3, not 4, but at least 5 too many hitters in this game. He isn't a great pitcher to begin with but he really was set up to fail tonight. This is the kind of game I expected out of Yost and it is sad to see Macha pull the same crap.

[logan82]

This is the kind of game I expected out of Yost and it is sad to see Macha pull the same crap.

 

Are you really surprised that Macha would do the same things Yost did?

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Could not agree with you more Ennder. Throw in his buddy at 3B that cost us two runs and two outs with runners in scoring position and they're out of it. I can see wanting to milk Soup as long as possible since CV is starting today with Dillard behind him, so there weren't great options for a long man, but Suppan when he is off is pretty awful. I wouldn't even mind having him bunt there since he's a good bunter to save a bench guy and still yank him after that, but sending him out there was practically waving the white flag.

 

I also agree that this team and this starting staff just shouldn't be this bad. If we just had a staff to keep us in the game...Yo, maybe a decent 2 and some guys that could deliver reasonable quality starts with mid 4 ERAs, this team would be in it. Between Bush's injury, Manny's meltdown and Soup's general suckiness it's just not happening.

[Invader3K]

At least Counsell has a ten game hitting streak going...that's something to feel good about, I guess.

[MJLiverock]

I don't understand how anyone can be shocked at how bad this rotation is. Suppan has never been great and is getting older, he may not be a 20 ERA pitcher but over 5 or 6 isn't out of the realm of reality. Players don't decline in a linear fashion, some fall off a cliff, some slowly disapper into the night. Gallardo and Parra are both early in big league careers so struggles should be expected, the continued excuse train for Parra does get old. He has had success in the minor and for stretches in the ML but is not a guaranteed future top of the rotation guy. Everytime he has a bad outing the "potential" train fires up and the reality of "disappointment" is pushed aside. Bush is hurt but has never acheived what many hopeful predictions had for him after his 2006 season. He is a decent 3/4 type pitcher with a mid 4 ERA, when healthy. Looper isn't much of a K guy, gives up a lot of hits, and is a another back of the roation guy as well who like Suppan, Parra, and Bush doesn't go much more than 6 innings resulting in a taxed bullpen. After that the talent level really drops off. The point has been made that who else do you bring in for some of these guys and that just furthers the proof of how bad the pitching situation is the guys in AAA are even worse options. The staff was built of guys who have a ceiling of average.

 

An earlier post by TLB responded to a question of what to be hopeful for next year and ticked off all the young hitters. I agree there are some exciting young hitters but it continues to point out the pitching is terrible. There weren't any young stud pitchers to look for and unless Melvin trades some hitters next year will be a repeat of this year, decent offense, terrible pitching and a mediocre record. Last night was a microcosm of this problem. The offense scored 6 runs and got blown out, sure it happens sometimes, but with this staff it will be more often than one would like.

[RU Rah Rah]

An earlier post by TLB responded to a question of what to be hopeful for next year and ticked off all the young hitters. I agree there are some exciting young hitters but it continues to point out the pitching is terrible. There weren't any young stud pitchers to look for and unless Melvin trades some hitters next year will be a repeat of this year, decent offense, terrible pitching and a mediocre record. Last night was a microcosm of this problem. The offense scored 6 runs and got blown out, sure it happens sometimes, but with this staff it will be more often than one would like.

This is what frightens me about '10 and '11. I think the lineup will work itself out, generally, without too many dramatic moves. But where is the pitching going to come from?

[joepepsi]

I agree with Ennder. This game is on Macha as much as Suppan. Seeing Suppan out there for the 6th was the first time I have been furious with Macha. With Yost it was at least 3-4 times a week.

 

There's a point when a game is out of hand and you start worrying about tomorrow's game. But a one run difference heading into the 6th is not that point. I'd rather win the game being played and take my chances with tomorrow, than play for tomorrow and cross my fingers for the current game.

[Invader3K]

None of you have suggested anything realistically better for Macha to do with what he has on hand. His rotation and bullpen are both a mess right now. Yeah, let's crucify the manager anyway, it must be his fault, right?

 

A manager can only use the deck he's been given. Right now he has one ace and no jacks. Just a bunch of jokers and deuces.

[MJLiverock]

This game is on Macha as much as Suppan. Seeing Suppan out there for the 6th was the first time I have been furious with Macha. With Yost it was at least 3-4 times a week.

Did Macha give up the double to Dunn? Did he give up the gopher ball to Willingham after that? What about Zimmerman's bomb? Seems to me that Stetter and DiFelice weren't helping things either and bringing them in for Suppan didn't solve anything so I can't split the blame like that and put it on Macha.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Both pitchers came into tough situations. I would have rather seen them get clean innings to start after it got back to 6-5. Heck, I'd even consider throwing Hoffman out there for an inning. At least he's well rested and no sense waiting around for save situations that aren't happening. I don't blame Macha for all the problems the Brewers have, it is well beyond one man's issues, I just didn't like the decision last night, simple as that.

[Mase]

The starting pitching has put Macha into this situation. He can not control that almost every start goes only 5 innings and he is forced to overuse his bullpen. He knew that he would need to use his bullpen a ton with Villa going tonight so he tried to get another inning out of a guy that gets paid a lot to get guys out. I see what he was trying to do. I do not understand the anger towards Macha on this one.

[sheethead]

I have a sinking feeling that rock bottom is still two months away. Say... Sept 23.

[Invader3K]

I do not understand the anger towards Macha on this one.

 

Exactly. He has nothing work with at this point. There are no decisions he can make on hand that reasonably give him a better chance of getting a victory. Sometimes it really is the players' fault.

[joepepsi]

Suppan was at 96 pitches and clearly gassed. Better to pull the starter at that point and hope he's sharper his next outing. Looper gave 6 innings on Sunday; Difelece and Smith were the only relievers on the roster who pitched that game.

 

Of course Villy was unavailable, but that left Swindle, Dillard, Coffey, Stetter and Hoffman available last night.

 

I agree it's the pitcher's job to get the outs, but it's the managers job to put his players in the best position to be successful.

[brewers4eric]

Last night's game reminded me of a game I attended against the Expos back in 2002. Ruben Quevado started and it was over by the third inning. Vlad Guerrero made a mockery of any pitcher we put on the mound. The shot that he hit off of Mike DeJean is scheduled for reentry into the earth's atmosphere sometime next year. The date was August 9, 2002, and I consider it one of the low points of the franchise. We've come a long way since then, but a game like last night is a sad reminder of how bad it can get.

[TooLiveBrew]

There weren't any young stud pitchers to look for and unless Melvin trades some hitters next year will be a repeat of this year, decent offense, terrible pitching and a mediocre record.

 

I apologize, as I feel I'm being redundant in different threads, but Melvin will absolutely have the opportunity to add at least one good, young SP this offseason. He may only have to move Hardy to do it.

[1992casey]

I think we've reached a good time to close this thread. Few posts are adding anything new.