Brewers acquire Felipe Lopez from Arizona for Cole Gillespie/Roque Mercedes, Gamel back to Nashville

[monkeyman343434]

What a waste trading for someone who is capable of playing 2b everyday, when we've already got Counsell, who had to decide between surgery right before the season, or just sucking it up and playing through the season - of course, he could play everyday from here on out. If we were going to trade for a 2B, why waste trading for one not named Chase Utley or Ian Kinsler, I mean, we're the Yankees and should only settle for an all All-Star lineup right?

[nate82]

Is it safe to assume this deal officially closes the door on Doug Davis?

 

I think so, at least for us. I am pretty sure at some point DDs name had to be tossed around.

It was reported that the Brewers were interested in Davis but the Diamondbacks were not thrilled with the return that they would be getting for him. I'm going to guess here and say Gillespie, Mercedes, and another prospect or two to the Diamondbacks for Davis and Lopez was in the works and the Diamondbacks were not interested in something like that.

[zzzmanwitz]

I see a lot of people saying Gamel struggled while up in Milwaukee. For the most part, I agree with this. What did not struggle (and what most of us were worried about) was his glove. It was actually better than I even expected (and I wasn't as down on it as most were). Its very hard to be a consistent hitter when you've been playing full time your entire career and then all of a sudden is relegated to 1-2 starts per week... if that! I understand that there were times that Macha wanted to play the hot hand with McGehee and Counsell, but given Gamel's proven ability to hit the ball, he should have been given some more chances. He wasn't even always the first PH off the bench (this I will never understand). I think that Gamel started looking at too many pitches lately, but this could be due to the fact that he just wasn't seeing much realtime pitching and he was having trouble recognizing pitches. A .743 OPS from a rookie getting inconsistent playing time is pretty darn good. I want to thank Gamel for his contributions so far this year, and hope to see him again soon.

 

BTW... welcome to the team Felipe. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[FVBrewerFan]

Could it be we'll see Gamel roaming the outfield in Nashville the rest of the year? Could that be the reason he's been sent down, as well as working on protecting the inside corner? With all the IFs they have on the roster, and coming soon, seems like moving Gamel to LF would be one realistic option. Especially if Cameron and/or Hart aren't back next year.

[TheCrew]

Lopez's numbers this year are skewed up because of his home ballpark. He's not a particularly good on base guy, doesn't steal bases, so I don't see how he is a "true" leadoff hitter. Gamel wasn't doing much worse than Lopez, especially if you look at Lopez' away splits.

 

It's a trade that won't make any difference. Unless something bigger is in the works.....

He hit .316 on the road last season....... and he is 2nd among NL 2b in OBP. Furthermore, if you want to use the park argument, take a look at his numbers in Mil. - he's got a career avg of .324 at Miller with a .397 OBP to go along with it.

 

I think this trade does make a difference - not the type of difference that is going to propel the team into the playoffs, but it improves the ball club.

[trademark04]

I don't see how placing Gamel in LF makes any sense, there is no future for him on the brewers in LF. I don't think you put a guy there to learn to play the other OF positions. I don't believe center is a viable option either, i could see right field. Overall i see his future with the brewers at first base assuming the brewers can't hold on to prince (obviously it would be nice if they could).

[zzzmanwitz]

Could it be we'll see Gamel roaming the outfield in Nashville the rest of the year?

 

Has Gamel done anything this year to make us think he can't play 3B?

[brewmann04]

I thought Gamel played a very good 3rd base and it looked like his fielding was a head of his hitting.

[Thurston Fluff]

but given Gamel's proven ability to hit the ball, he should have been given some more chances.

 

 

I don't know how much someone proved in 115 total ab's. What he has shown is he strikes out about 40% of the time. Uecker knew a low inside braking ball or inside fastball at the belt was coming on any 2 strike count because he couldn't handle it yet. That only means he would continue his K pace until he showed he made adjustments to that way of pitching.

Total in the majors now he has a .243 average, .338 OBP, and .417 slugging %. Not bad but certainly not good for a contending team with better options. To send him back down now is only going to help him improve the holes in his offense without harming the team or running up service time. If the only way to do that and maintain the current level or minor increase in the level of play was to give up two relatively low ceiling minor leaguers I'm all for it. This team has a chance to win the division and are ina win now without harming the future mode. This trade is the type that can be made without harming either of those two goals.

[FVBrewerFan]

No, but there is a glut of infielders and very little on the horizon for the OF. Especially if Hart is traded. But lots of options to play 3B. McGehee, Lopez, Hardy, Counsell, Hall (sorry), Heether, etc.

 

There was no reason to believe Braun wouldn't have become a good 3B either, and he was moved. Sure he struggled, nbut with his athleticism and work ethic he could have made it work.

[Ennder]

I don't see how placing Gamel in LF makes any sense, there is no future for him on the brewers in LF. I don't think you put a guy there to learn to play the other OF positions.

I'd say Braun is our future RF not LF. He has a strong arm, he has better range than most LF and he said in the all-star game that he felt it was easier to read the ball off of the bat out there.

[Diskono]

Macha didn't bench Brooks freaking Robinson. Gamel was mediocre up here. Had his moments, and was better than Hall, but was worse than McGehee. In terms of production, their best lineup was with Counsell at 2B and McGehee at 3B. And when healthy that's what happened.

Yep. Should Macha have benched the hottest hitter on the team? If McGehee was hitting like a normal backup player, I'm sure Gamel would have started most of the time. But he was hitting like Chase Utley.

[sargennm]

I think that Gamel started looking at too many pitches lately, but this could be due to the fact that he just wasn't seeing much realtime pitching and he was having trouble recognizing pitches. A .743 OPS from a rookie getting inconsistent playing time is pretty darn good. I want to thank Gamel for his contributions so far this year, and hope to see him again soon.

It seems that pitchers found that hole in his swing on the inside of the plate. He's hasn't just looked lost lately, he's looked over matched. I hope that he can get control of those inside pitches and become a complete player, but I'd rather see him work that out in AAA.

 

I'm happy with the trade, I'm of the camp that Lopez is the player you've seen over the last 500 ABs, which I think is an upgrade, especially against LHP. I know that there were a number of player, including Puljos, who really liked having Lopez on the Cards last year. There were a number of fans down here in St. Louis who were baffled by the handling of the situation and would much rather have Lopez around that had to deal with the Adam Kenndy, Aaron Miles, Kahlil Greene offseason fiasco.

 

If he does what the Brewers believe he'll do, the Brewers will be in contention or make the playoffs with Lopez playing well. If that happens, Lopez likely will decline arby to find at least a multiyear deal somewhere else and get some financial security. If not, we have a capable utlity guy to replace Counsell next year. I thought this type of "haul" might have been enough to net both Davis and Lopez, but I guess that was wishful thinking.

[Godspeed]

What a waste trading for someone who is capable of playing 2b everyday, when we've already got Counsell, who had to decide between surgery right before the season, or just sucking it up and playing through the season - of course, he could play everyday from here on out. If we were going to trade for a 2B, why waste trading for one not named Chase Utley or Ian Kinsler, I mean, we're the Yankees and should only settle for an all All-Star lineup right?

Right on. Just because we have Craig Counsell available at 2B (especially now that Gamel's getting his requisite ABs at Nashville) doesn't make the Lopez acquisition redundant. Counsell is pushing 39 years of age and had been playing above his head for May/June before coming back to earth in July. I don't know how we could reasonably expect anyhing better than Counsell's .653 OPS from July going forward without a copious and appropriate amount of rest to keep him fresh. He's a bit player and not to be overused.

[zzzmanwitz]

I don't know how much someone proved in 115 total ab's.

 

I totally agree.

 

But 1829 ABs in the minors is a pretty solid sample. I don't need to rattle off his stats, but when he is OPSing over 1.000 in AAA, he is ready to at least be given a chance to start at a major league level. That was never an opportunity given to him.

[Ennder]

571 pitches is a sample you can work off of somewhat as well. He did most of his damage off of the standard fastball and struggled the most with the cut and split fingered fastballs. He swung at 22.5% of pitches out of the zone which isn't amazingly high or anything but he only made contact 46.9% of the time on out of zone swings which suggests he was swinging at pretty bad pitches a lot.

 

His zone contact rate was around 80% which is pretty low as well. His overall contact rate was 70% which is right around Bill Hall levels which obviously isn't good territory to be in.

 

I'd say he was at least partially overmatched.

[zzzmanwitz]

I just have a very hard time making any judgements on Gamel at a major league level based off of his playing time because it was so inconsistent. I know that he has a significant number ABs and Pitches seen, but he never was given a few weeks in a row of starts to just get comfortable. I hope he goes down to AAA, gets some everyday time, and comes back up to add some value to this team.

[Thurston Fluff]

but when he is OPSing over 1.000 in AAA, he is ready to at least be given a chance to start at a major league level. That was never an opportunity given to him.

 

He has 4 more ab's in AAA than he had in the majors. How can you know more about this abilities to play major league ball through 119 ab's in AAA than you can in 115 ab's in the majors? Just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not saying his numbers all the way through the system doesn't project well for him as a major league player down the raod. Far from that. It's just I don't think he was ready for the majors now. I'm not a fan of Macha's use of the bench or young players but I think in the Gamel case he saw someone not quite ready for prime time and used him accordingly.

[zzzmanwitz]

How can you know more about this abilities to play major league ball through 119 ab's in AAA than you can in 115 ab's in the majors?

 

And I'm not the one arguing that his PAs in the majors have been bad. I think he's looked good enough in the Majors to get more playing time.

[Thurston Fluff]

If we didn't have someone who was playing better now fine. Since we have better options I don't see how you can justify playing him over that person. This is a team chasing a division title and a second consecutive playoff birth in a very winnable division. It is not the time to let a young player learn on the job unless we have to. We don't so he's not going to play regularly which is the very thing he needs to do to fix his incomplete offensive skill set.

Gamel is a great prospect for the future but today is the present and this team has a responsibility to the fans, who have supported this team so well, to put out the best team possible everyday all year long. If they can do that and get Gamel the playing time he needs for a projected 4th outfielder and a low level bullpen prospect I think it's a deal that should be made. Both for the short term and long term.

[logan82]

If we didn't have someone who was playing better now fine. Since we have better options I don't see how you can justify playing him over that person.

 

You can't justify playing Gamel over Counsell?

[TooLiveBrew]

Gamel is a great prospect for the future but today is the present and this team has a responsibility to the fans, who have supported this team so well, to put out the best team possible everyday all year long.

 

I guess if both McGehee & Counsell continue to vastly overplay their career norms, then yes not playing Gamel & now sending him to AAA has been the move to get the best team possible out there.

 

However, I for one will be shocked if McGehee's .353 BABIP doesn't continue to plummet as the season wears on (it was up around .400 as recently -- iirc -- as late May). Besides, both McGehee & Counsell are already feeling the burn of playing everyday. Iirc each guy is nursing a leg ailment. Sure, Lopez helps in terms of IF depth, but the Brewers didn't need to make a move. They just needed their manager to play guys appropriately.

 

 

It is not the time to let a young player learn on the job unless we have to. We don't so he's not going to play regularly which is the very thing he needs to do to fix his incomplete offensive skill set.

 

As of today, Counsell's line on the season is .280/.350/.407/.757. McGehee's is .321/.376/.519/.895. Both are well above their expected performance levels, and setting the blue Kool-Aid down for a second, should probably be expected to regress in the second half. Gamel, on the other hand, showed a lot of polish at the plate. Don't forget his line as a 3Bman -- .268/.346/.507/.853. That's already superior to Counsell's line, and a hot streak away from chasing down and/or surpassing McGehee's. So if the "incomplete offensive skillset" of Gamel is legitimately giving both Counsell & McGehee a run for their money, what does that say about how much should really be expected of them the rest of the way?

 

I hope I'm wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Gamel recalled due to an injury that Counsell and/or McGehee can no longer play through. However, unless the hypothetical injuries in question were season-enders, Gamel would probably just wind up losing his spot again anyway.

 

 

This trade is an indictment on the incompetence of Macha. Since Macha refused to play his best option every day (Gamel) and just doesnt like young players Melvin was forced to trade for a mediocre player. I completely agree that Melvin and Macha are not on the same page and hope Doug pulls the plug after the season. Gamel has shown that when he is given the chance to start that he will produce some nice numbers yet Macha was constantly looking for reasons not to play him. His comments about Melvin putting him in a "zim zam" with Gamel just shows how incompetent Macha really is.

 

I really have been wanting to give Macha a long leash. Overall I like how he's handled the pitching staff, but he's shown a recent propensity for leaving our two young arms in well over 100 pitches, so some of the shine is wearing off there too. Even though I actually do prefer Macha to Yost, I wouldn't mind seeing the Brewers look at the manager position again this offseason.

[monty57]

I, too, think this trade only needed to be done due to Macha's unwillingness to play young players. That said, Melvin's in the nest he built. He interviewed and hired Macha, and at that time he should have found out how he felt about playing young players, who are a key to Milwaukee's success. As it is, Macha will not play Gamel regularly, and therefore I would assume that he wouldn't play Heether or Iribarren regularly. That leaves us with Counsell & McGehee playing full time on gimpy knees, which probably wouldn't have a happy ending. Something needed to be done, and a second straight year of firing a manager mid-season when the team is in a playoff hunt probably wasnt appealing to Melvin. That, in my mind, is why we didn't "solve the problem" in-house.

 

While there are risks involved, I'm okay with the trade. I've always liked Gillespie, but he can only play LF, and likey won't put up good numbers for a LF. It's also hard to be a 4th OF when you can only backup LF. I also long for the days when we'll be able to stop spending millions of dollars on transiant middle relievers, and instead can fill those roles cheaply from within the organization, saving money to be spent on more important positions. Mercedes therefore had some value to the Brewers' future if he could adequately fill that role. That said, if we do get draft picks for Lopez (not a certainty, but probably likely), that along with whatever value Lopez adds should make up for the value we lost.

 

While we've scored a lot of runs on the season, the offense has been getting shut down on a regular basis lately, so a shake-up may have been needed. Counsell and McGehee have been playing well, but could falter and they are playing hurt. It would seem to be hard to upgrade most other positions at this point, so I understand why the move was made. Lopez fills the "Weeks role" on the team - playing everyday at 2B and leading off, adding some much needed continuity to the lineup. While there is a chance he accepts arbitration, it seems likely he'd test the FA market, assuming it's better than last year (which isn't an extremely strong assumption). I wouldn't think he'd want to come back to a team in which he knows he'll be a bench player, when some team should sign him to be a starter given they won't have to give up picks for a Type B FA. At best, he helps us win the division and we get picks for him when he leaves. At worst, we lose some moderately talented prospects and end up with Weeks, Escobar/Hardy, Gamel with Lopez as a super-sub next year. The best case scenario is wonderful, and the worst case isn't that bad, so I guess on that note I think the trade's a positive.

[TheCrew]

Isn't it possible the Macha didn't play Gamel because he didn't perform, and it has nothing to do with his age?

 

I like Gamel as much as the next brewer fan - but he was striking out at an alarming rate. I heard a lot of cries from brewer fans last week when he homered "he should be playing everyday" and "what is Macha thinking" - meanwhile, he came up to the plate 2 other times that night with the bases loaded and he struck out both times.

 

He's a top prospect - but he has to work on hitting inside pitches and I really don't think it's in the best interest of the brewers to throw him out there everyday and just hope he works it out....... especially not when your trying to make the playoffs.

[jwill535]

The biggest thing Gamel needs to work on is pitch recognition. He strikes out on 3 pitch strikes an awful lot for a non pitcher. Working through things is better done in the minors and not the majors of a possible contending team.