Brewers acquire Felipe Lopez from Arizona for Cole Gillespie/Roque Mercedes, Gamel back to Nashville

[joepepsi]

Counsell's peak OPS was .926 on May 9th. (.340/.435/.491) Since then he's hit .268/.332/.392--.724 OPS in 217 plate appearances. That's a little better than his career averages, but not by much. He's been a valuable part of this season but other than a hot streak in May he's been the same Craig Counsell he's always been.

[monty57]

I don't think Gamel's stats can be taken at face value, as any player, particularly a young player, is generally going to have worse numbers without regular playing time. I'm happy that Counsell and McGehee are having the years they are having. I am unhappy that Gamel was brought up, and kept up simply to sit the bench. If he wasn't giong to play, he should have been in Nashville long ago.

 

That said, it's good to see Lopez get off to a good start with the bat, even if he did have running and fielding mistakes. Like it or not, he's now a Brewer, so I hope he keeps up his good season, and I hope we are able to make the playoffs and get a sandwich pick for him in next year's draft.

 

On that note, if he does continue to play out of his mind, what would it take for him to end up a Type A free agent? Would that even be desireable, considering it would mean that other teams would be less likely to sign him, knowing they'd have to give up a draft pick (a la Graffanino)?

[logan82]

Well this is a good move for the future while taking a small step back this year. We gain an extra year of Gamel, if he stays down long enough, and a possible sandwich pick.

[PeaveyFury]

he may struggle like Brad Nelson to be anything but a PH

 

And you expect more than that out of Gillespie? I just don't see it.

 

I fail to see how a team ranked usually fairly high the past few years in farm system rankings can give up a player a year ago that almost cracked the top 5 prospect list and has had the injury bug gave up a 'bad prospect'.

 

No one said "bad prospect", that's a completely blatant exaggeration. And even though his stock was higher a couple of years ago, prospects do fade. Brad Nelson was #2 on the Power 50 a few years ago. Just because a guy was a solid prospect then doesn't mean he remains one now while in the midst of a poor season in AAA and is getting older.

 

I would've thought we could've gotten Davis for Cole, but that must tell you what we'd have to give up to get him.

 

....or tells you how much value Gillespie really had.

[PeaveyFury]

There really has not been any hand-wringing in this thread, -- any trade is going to have its detractors.

 

And oddly, some of the same posters seem to be the detractors in each trade. It certainly can suggest disagreeing just to be contrary or to try and stir up trouble in some cases.

[TheCrew07]

There really has not been any hand-wringing in this thread, -- any trade is going to have its detractors.

 

And oddly, some of the same posters seem to be the detractors in each trade. It certainly can suggest disagreeing just to be contrary or to try and stir up trouble in some cases.

Until a long-term rotation solution is acquired I'm going to be a detractor of just about every deal we make. It doesn't matter to me what we gave up, it only matters that we aren't addressing the true weaknesses of the team. 2B was not a hole, McGehee and Counsell were doing just fine. We already had tons of back of the rotation depth so why waste an asset on Wright?

 

We keep addressing the effects instead of the root cause. 2B was not the hole in the lineup... Counsell should never start at a corner IF spot the same way TGJ should have never started at a corner OF spot. We had a gaping hole in the rotation last season, we have it this season, unless something drastic happens we'll have it next season, and in 2011 both Bush and Suppan will be gone. It all starts with pitching... the best way to even out the results of an up and down offense is to have a good pitching staff that's going to keep the scores down. The 8 position player are what they are. Natural attrition will turnover the lineup, but to win in the post season we need pitching, defense, and the offense.

 

Every team in the playoffs will be among the league leaders in runs, most play good to excellent defense, but the rotations make difference. What was major difference between the Brewers and Phillies in the playoffs? The Phillies have been at the top of the Runs leaderboard for years and only got over the top when their pitching matched the rest of their game. There's not really any getting bye on average play in the playoffs, it just doesn't seem to work that way. You can win with average in the regular season, but in the post season you aren't going to beat the best teams giving away runs on defense or due to poor pitching. Teams will struggle to beat the Nats giving runs away in the regular season... in the post season those runs are killer.

 

The offense is what it is, but who do we shorten our rotation to this season? People want Davis... is he going to shutdown the Phillies in 2 games? Will any of us bank on that? What about Yo? Will he hold up that long? Parra? I had high hopes, I'm not willing to hang my hat on him now... Looper? Suppan?

 

I still maintain that some people are letting their personal pursuit of the post season get in the way of the realities surrounding this team. This notion that you just have to get there doesn't really hold water.. Colorando and St. Louis made it look that way, but if you look deeper into the numbers the answers are pretty obvious. Getting hot, getting on a roll... yes those things help, but the year the Rockies made their run they had a banner year pitching wise, and when the Cards made their run it was all about a shortened rotation that included Suppan in a career run of his own.

 

Until we get a solid 1,2,3 we're a 1 and done team in the post season, we just don't match up.

[PeaveyFury]

2B was not a hole, McGehee and Counsell were doing just fine.

 

If you ignore that they're both banged up right now.

 

Otherwise, I agree with your basic premise- if they acquire pitching, I hope it's a longer-term solution. That said, that type of deal probably isn't available during the season.

[PeaveyFury]

Woot for "right hamstring tightness".

[JJHardy7]

And you expect more than that out of Gillespie? I just don't see it.

Sorry if I wasn't clear...that was in regard to Katin not Gillespie.

No one said "bad prospect", that's a completely blatant exaggeration. And even though his stock was higher a couple of years ago, prospects do fade. Brad Nelson was #2 on the Power 50 a few years ago. Just because a guy was a solid prospect then doesn't mean he remains one now while in the midst of a poor season in AAA and is getting older.

There's been posts that have said folks were glad we didn't give up a top prospect. He was top 10 in the organization within a year and nearly top 5. I don't see how one of the best farm systems having a player ranked that high isn't a 'top prospect'. If that doesn't qualify for 'top prospect' status then we're talking top in baseball...not on the Brewers and that is fine. I just feel some aren't valuing Cole and I'm not sure why. Comparing Cole to Katin as a prospect is also a completely blatant exaggeration. It's not even close. Maybe I was wrong in 'bad prospect', but I feel he was greatly undervalued in several posts in this thread.

Maybe he was overvalued by some? I don't know. I also don't know the value Cole had at the time of the trade, but the Brewers either botched not trading him when his value was higher last year or simply should've let this year play out with him. He's a better player than his numbers indicate this year. His year in Huntsville last year would've put him on the map in a big way for most organizations, but with LaPorta, Gamel, Escobar, Salome, etc. there last year he went under the radar a bit.

....or tells you how much value Gillespie really had.

...or tells you how much value Lopez really had. I realize you'll pick apart my posts here and at LL.net. I've come to expect it. You can bring up Brad Nelson (major hand injury by the way that you don't mention), bring up how Cole is has lost so much value in less than a year (which is not true...look up his stats last year), etc. You don't agree with me and that's fine. I'll say it again though...if Cole puts up those numbers last year in almost any other organization he's a top 5 prospect.

[TheCrew07]

I'm not ignoring their health issues, the obvious solution there was to platoon those guys at 2B and let Gamel play 3B in my opinion.

[PeaveyFury]

Sorry if I wasn't clear...that was in regard to Katin not Gillespie.

 

No that was my point- I think that description can apply to either one.

 

There's been posts that have said folks were glad we didn't give up a top prospect.

 

Yes, there have. Now point me to ONE that said we gave up a "bad prospect" as you claimed. THAT'S the issue I had with your post.

 

Comparing Cole to Katin as a prospect is also a completely blatant exaggeration. It's not even close.

 

Again, I agree- I just think that they're the exact opposite as you do. It's a matter of opinion, not fact.

 

You can bring up Brad Nelson (major hand injury by the way that you don't mention)

 

Cole Gillespie had major shoulder surgery that's destroyed his throwing arm and made him a huge liability in the field, by the way.

I feel you'll disagree with anything I say here and LL.net so I've come to expect it.

 

I assure you that isn't the case. I just think you're completely wrong here.

[JJHardy7]

No that was my point- I think that description can apply to either one.

What? That's not accurate at all. A guy with bad plate discipline will not do well as a PH. They pretty much have the same OBP except one hasn't started hitting yet. To me, that means Cole would be the better option. They are not the same player. I'm not saying that makes Cole awesome or anything.

Yes, there have. Now point me to ONE that said we gave up a "bad prospect" as you claimed. THAT'S the issue I had with your post.

No needs for the caps. I also said 'bad' was a stretch, but to not call him a top prospect may not be true. I stated that in my previous post. I just think that feeling that Cole is a 'throw-in' or something like that (hope that's better) isn't accurate compared to many Brewers propects lists by various publications. I don't see the difference between 'throw-in/afterthough/bad'...it's somewhat the same IMO because none of those players will make it to the bigs if those are factual statements.

Again, I agree- I just think that they're the exact opposite as you do. It's a matter of opinion, not fact.

That's fine. Your opinion though is just different than almost any scout in baseball and also the folks here that do the Power 50. There's nothing wrong with that. Hopefully you don't use it as fact that Katin is a superior player when almost everyone does not find that to be true. Again, I wish Katin the best, but you can't always teach plate discipline. That's a major flaw and Cole has his own flaws as well.

Cole Gillespie had major shoulder surgery that's destroyed his throwing arm and made him a huge liability in the field, by the way.

He can still play LF. His shoulder will most likely get better over time, but you are right. It won't be where it was and he probably can't play RF and slim chance to play CF. That doesn't mean he doesn't have value and again I think his shoulder will improve a bit over time to at least be slightly below average. It's not terrible right now either by the way, but you wouldn't want to put him in RF or CF. If he was hitting better, it'd be a non-issue for me, but until/if that happens it's no doubt a concern.

I assure you that isn't the case. I just think you're completely wrong here.

That's your opinion. I also don't think it's cool to say 'the same posters...etc....etc'. I don't really think you need to attempt to publicly call out people, but at the same time not drop names. People are entitled to their own opinion or at least that's what I thought was the case. I can see why people would be excited or bummed, but I do fail to see how it can be 100% right or wrong either way. Maybe Lopez helps the Brewers and the guy we draft one day is a top prospect...maybe Cole or Mercedes become solid MLB players. I don't think anyone here knows that answer.

[PeaveyFury]

...or tells you how much value Lopez really had.

 

Rotoworld's take on the trade:

Not a thrilling return (for the D'Backs).

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&filter_teams=ARZ&id=4697

 

That's not accurate at all. A guy with bad plate discipline will not do well as a PH.

 

Your post was:

 

he may struggle like Brad Nelson to be anything but a PH

 

My point is:

 

Both Gillespie and Katin will likely struggle to be anything but a PH in MLB.

 

Your opinion though is just different than almost any scout in baseball and also the folks here that do the Power 50.

 

And again, things change. Katin seems to be turning a corner this season. Gillespie is struggling.

 

I don't really think you need to attempt to publicly call out people, but at the same time not drop names

 

For the record, your name never even entered my mind in that regard. People certainly have the right to their opinions, I take issue when there's intent to stir up controversy, as I made clear in my post.

[Fatter than Joey]

And oddly, some of the same posters seem to be the detractors in each trade.

 

Who is detracting? -- and who is starting controversy in this thread?

 

No need to be so defensive, though I know that's your nature.

 

C'mon man, this is not necessary.

[molitor fan]

i was a big Gillespie fan, having met him and talked at some length with him in spring training a couple of years ago. However, to say that he would have been a top 5 guy in many other organizations seems outlandish to me. The guy is an older, pigeon-holed left-fielder with a moderate skill set that translates at best to a 4th outfielder role....quotes taken from the D-backs suggest this thought process from them as well, as indicate Mercedes - power 50 #50, by the way, was regarded as the bigger haul in the deal.

Sometimes posts are picked apart simply because they need to be picked apart.

[davego]

If moving Gillespie really comes back to haunt the 'Crew I'd be stunned. Either he would perform way above expectations or something really bad happened to our current OF.

[PeaveyFury]

Who is detracting?

 

? There were several people in the thread that spoke ill of the trade.

 

and who is starting controversy in this thread?

 

My point was simply that when the same people hate each and every move the Brewers make, it suggests the possibility that they're doing it just to stir up an argument or be contrary.

[Jay Zahn]

The Brewers are not going to get a major league ready arm unless they give up major value, like Hardy, Hart, or Gamel. There is a limit to what you can get for future prospects.

 

Some of this comes down to what the farm system has produced for the last 10 years or so. Literally nothing of any value came up through the farm system pitching wise between Ben Sheets and Gallardo/Parra. Even De La Rosa came in the Sexson deal. We were lucky to get Doug Davis off the scrap heap, but Capuano and Bush came from trading front line talent. The pitching talent that should have come up from 2001-05 could still be here helping or could be traded to fill other needs. Without it the team has one less option.

[Thurston Fluff]

I can appreciate you taking the company line on this. I still think you are really mistaken in you belief in Counsell. . I really can't express in the proper words how I feel about a fan thinking that Counsell is a better hitting option than Gamel. This is just taking single season stats way to far.

 

Lets see. I can't use this season's stats to see who is better but you can use AA and a handful of AAA stats and say definitively Gamel is better. I have as much trouble expressing my feelings about that as you do me using this years stats to see who is a better option for the next month.

I don't see what Gamel has done to make you think he is better today. Certainly nothing he has done in the majors so far. His numbers in the minors are great but he only has about 120 ab's above AA. I don't know how anyone can say you can't look at this years numbers to see who is a better option then turn around and say the guy with 120ish ab's at AAA is better than an established veteran who is putting up better numbers than said prospect at the time. There is no more evidence that Gamel is ready to out hit Cousell than the numbers they have produced this season. I certainly think they are as, if not more, telling than AA numbers or a handful of AAA ab's.

You can say he is going to be better but not he is better now.

 

To bring this back to the trade I think this gives the Brewers the chance to have the best lineup which, at the moment, is Cousell/McGehee at third with Lopez at second. We get the production at the top of the order we really needed and Gamel learns to hit/lay off the inside pitches while working on his fielding and we get another year of better production out of him. All it cost us is two average prospects. This trade makes us better now and for the future.

[sheethead]

Its getting a bit ugly in here, looks like bad vibes DO follow Lopez wherever he goes.

[lcbj68c]

TheCrew 07 had it perfectly. Until Melvin learns to get premium pitching, this team will be going in circles with it's hitting. Granted, I still like the trade because I believe it fills a need at the leadoff spot. There's just something to be had for the whole lineup when you feel confident in the guy who starts off the game and hits 4-5 times a game directly before your proven RBI guys. Again, like LaPorta, we gave up a prospect that was blocked and for that, I'm okay with the trade. Not until Melvin solidifies the rotation with a premium 1-2 punch will this team do anything but spin in circles. Off-season, mid-season...there seems to be an excuse for DM for every time of year. Similiar to the excuses for Bill Hall, if you can't perform (whether hit or attract premium free agent talent), it's time to be gone.

[kramnoj]

I can't use this season's stats to see who is better but you can use AA and a handful of AAA stats and say definitively Gamel is better.

 

If anyone is saying that you can't use this season's stats, they would be mistaken. What is being argued is that all things should be looked at in context, and that Counsell's career tells us more about how good a hitter he is rather than the smallish sample of half a season.

 

Of course, a discussion about the hitting merits of Counsell vs Gamel seems to be missing the other part of their job, which is defense. Counsell clearly wins in that area, so Gamel can't just have similar offensive numbers to Counsell, he needs to hit significantly better.

 

I think the Brewers would have been better off putting Gamel at 3B and platooning Casey and Counsell at 2B, but it doesn't seem that Macha is on board with that. Since GMs don't write out the lineup card, I think Melvin did a decent job of acquiring talent that Macha would use.

[Thurston Fluff]

Melvin used excuses instead of trading for a top level pitcher last year?

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Has there been any discussion on whether Lopez would accept arbitration if we offered him after the season? If there was, my apologies for not ciphering through 17 pages of thread.

[zzzmanwitz]

there seems to be an excuse for DM for every time of year.

 

Has any team made a big trade for starting pitching yet? It is obviously at a premium. You can't blame Melvin if there aren't any fair deals out there. Would you want to overpay to get a #2 like Davis? Sure, every GM is going to make some bad decisions, but Melvin has steered this team in the right direction. Gallardo/Looper has been a solid "1-2 punch" this year. We have lost our pre season #2 in Bush, and Parra has had his issues but seems to be turning it around. The only reason there is a need for a starter at this point is the fact that Bush's future this season is uncertain.