Brewers acquire Felipe Lopez from Arizona for Cole Gillespie/Roque Mercedes, Gamel back to Nashville

[zzzmanwitz]

Does this Gamel Discussion need a separate thread? I don't want to make one then have it closed.

[JJHardy7]

No, but there is a glut of infielders and very little on the horizon for the OF. Especially if Hart is traded. But lots of options to play 3B. McGehee, Lopez, Hardy, Counsell, Hall (sorry), Heether, etc.

I'd imagine only one of those is a 'lock' to be on the team next year -- McGehee. I don't see Gamel being moved for any reason off of 3B at this point. There is too much unknown about next year.

Also, I think some people are failing to realize how not playing everyday has a negative impact on hitting. Taking BP is a lot different than facing live MLB pitching. I would have to imagine the more consistent a player sees new MLB pitching for the first time...the better the results. It doesn't work the other way around. Again, I'm fine with Gamel going down, but to me his at-bats didn't 'prove' he's bad or not ready. He's probably not an ideal bench player and he did prove to a certain degree he can handle MLB pitching. He obviously does have some items to work on though in order to reach his potential...much like other prospects.

[JoeHova]

Gamel definitely looked like he could use a little more time in AAA, considering the rate he was striking out at. He struck out in 35.1% of his plate appearances, a higher rate than strikeout record holder Mark Reynolds has ever struck out at (33.3% was his high). Ryan Howard's high is 31%. Adam Dunn's high is 28.6%. Branyan's career number is 33.5%. I normally don't care much about K's, but when you are putting those guys to shame with your strikeout numbers, something probably needs to change. Gamel wasn't in Chris Davis territory, but it's extremely hard to put up numbers when you are striking out at those kinds of rates. Gamel doesn't have the massive, light tower power that the other guys have, he won't be able to K as much and keep his numbers respectable.

[logan82]

JoeHova wrote:

Gamel doesn't have the massive, light tower power that the other guys have, he won't be able to K as much and keep his numbers respectable.

He may need to improve, but any player can strike out a lot and still be valuable as long as they maintain their OBP/SLG/OPS numbers. It has been a while since having a strikeout conversation, but nothing has changed, they still matter very little in comparison to the slash stats.

[zzzmanwitz]

I don't think there is one person on this board that thinks Gamel was doing great. Even those of us who are people that think he should be starting.

 

However, I don't understand how you guys keep saying he needs more seasoning at AAA, he's striking out too much, he looks lost, etc. My point is that he needs to play more than 1 or 2 times a week to get into any sort of a groove at the plate. Gamel has never been a bench player, from pee wee to now, and to throw him in there and expect him to be OPSing .850 as a spot starter and pinch hitter is a little ridiculous. Gamel has shown he can hit minor league hitting. In the games he played, he looked solid in the field. I think he is our best 3B option, even with Lopez in there. McGehee and Counsell make great backups, but Gamel is the guy, both now and for the future.

[TheCrew07]

This is a trade sacrificing more assets for a marginal upgrade at best at 2B. The only good thing about this trade is Gamel going down to actually play in some games.

 

This notion that teams in contention don't break in prospects is totally false. Just because you may not want it to be done, doesn't it mean it isn't regularly done across the league for a variety of very defensible reasons. For example, it's far better to break in 1 prospect at a time, than break in 3. This isn't a franchise that's going to be built around veteran players, and even the franchises that do operate in that manner develop their own prospects and play them while they in contention, because they are regularly in contention.

 

I know many people are happy with the idea of filling the "Weeks hole" in the line-up but this trade doesn't address the fundamental problem with this team and organization as a whole. We need Quality pitching, not more average pitching, we already have a ton of that, we need quality. We now have 2 fewer pieces to move for pitching, which is seriously dampening my enthusiasm not only for 2009, but for the future as well.

 

Gamel's splits while actually playing in the field are being overlooked. If he's over matched and still putting up an OPS north of .800, why wouldn't the organization want him to play and adjust to the level of competition. If he's struggling to an .800+ OPS what does that mean about his future? I wish I could have struggled my way to an .800+ OPS... I wish Hardy would struggle to an .800 OPS... He's not hitting near his potential and still put up solid numbers when he was playing in a full time role. By what measure was he not getting the job done? Pinch hitting? Who cares about pinch hitting, he obviously wasn't comfortable or accustomed to that role, the fault their lies with Macha, not Gamel.

 

This is another "meh" deal, the team isn't significantly better on the whole. Gamel climbing towards his potential would have provided more offensive value than anyone else on the team not named Braun or Fielder. I see this as a similar team offensively now short 2 pieces that could have possibly been moved for an organizational wide hole. Melvin has done nothing to change my opinion that we're just going to tread water until some young pitching develops, if it ever will develop (yes the news about Braddock,.Adams, and Jeffress been like a kick to the groin to me).

[JoeHova]

He may need to improve, but any player can strike out a lot and still be valuable as long as they maintain their OBP/SLG/OPS numbers. It has been a while since having a strikeout conversation, but nothing has changed, they still matter very little in comparison to the slash stats.

You misunderstand my point. If a player strikes out in 35% of his PA's, he has to do a heck of a lot with the remaining 65% in order to have good numbers. Most guys compensate by hitting a home run every 15 at-bats or so, as well as walking a lot. Mat was hitting a home run every 28 at-bats. He was walking at a fine rate, but K'ing that much means you have to crush the ball when you don't K and Mat wasn't really doing that. His numbers were due for a drop because his BABIP was probably unsustainably high (about .370).

 

I'm one of the most pro-K people you'll meet, but there are practical limits to how often any certain type of hitter can strikeout and still maintain serviceable numbers. I believe Mat has surpassed that threshold so far this season.

[logan82]

His high K rate could easily be explained away by his inconsistent playing time. Even with the high K rate, he still put up decent numbers.

 

If we are going to continue making arguements using just this year's stats, we might as well break things down by month. Doing so shows that Counsell peaked in May(.690, .825, .788, .625 OPS by month) and has gotten worse since. McGehee had a really good month in June(1.100 OPS) a good month in July(.793 OPS) and really bad other than that(.500 OPS April, .620 OPS May). Gamel on the other hand is actually currently the hottest hitter of the 3 (.821 OPS in July) while improving steadily since his callup(.726, .720, .821).

[TheCrew]

My point is that he needs to play more than 1 or 2 times a week to get into any sort of a groove at the plate. Gamel has never been a bench player, from pee wee to now, and to throw him in there and expect him to be OPSing .850 as a spot starter and pinch hitter is a little ridiculous. Gamel has shown he can hit minor league hitting. In the games he played, he looked solid in the field. I think he is our best 3B option, even with Lopez in there. McGehee and Counsell make great backups, but Gamel is the guy, both now and for the future.

From May 22 to June 21st Gamel had played in 27 games - in 19 of those he had 3 or more plate appearances. 18 hits in 75 at bats, 28 k's, 7 walks and 1 HR. Sure that isn't every day, but that is playing quite a bit and he simply did not perform.

 

I just don't buy into the theory that if he got an extra 25 AB's during that month long stretch, that he would have hit better. Macha gave him his shot, he put up very poor numbers...... as I said before, I like Gamel as much as the next guy and have very high hopes for him - but it just wasn't working.

[mletto157]

One of my biggest problems here is that we should be a buy low/sell high team. Felipe Lopez probably has the most value right now than he could ever have the rest of his career and probably more than he's ever had previously in his career. That, coupled with the fact that we didn't really need him makes this trade very underwhelming. We could have gotten him for a bag of peanuts this last offseason - instead we're trading two prospects for him. Granted, those prospects may have never had a future in Milwaukee, but still we should be going after something we need. Gamel playing every day at 3rd with McGehee most days at 2nd I think would have been more productive than Lopez every day at 2nd with McGehee most days at 3rd.

[DHonks]

The Crew, I would argue that Gamel's offense and defense deserved to play more than sporadic at bats. He drew quite a few walks, played far better defense than expected, and--most importantly--was healthy (unlike Counsell and McGehee with their balky knees). Hitting around .250 with an obp of .340+ is just fine for his first tour in the big leagues.

[JJHardy7]

From May 22 to June 21st Gamel had played in 27 games - in 19 of those he had 3 or more plate appearances. 18 hits in 75 at bats, 28 k's, 7 walks and 1 HR. Sure that isn't every day, but that is playing quite a bit and he simply did not perform.

 

I just don't buy into the theory that if he got an extra 25 AB's during that month long stretch, that he would have hit better. Macha gave him his shot, he put up very poor numbers...... as I said before, I like Gamel as much as the next guy and have very high hopes for him - but it just wasn't working.

 

How is having 2.5 bats a game even anywhere near regular playing time? I would also check the stats based on what position he played (DH/PH vs. 3B). I just don't see how one can put so much negative weight on such a small sample when its the guy's real first taste of the majors. If he wasn't going to play everyday, he should be in AAA and now he is. His K rate is so out of wack with his minor league numbers that I have a very, very hard time believing that would continue with regular playing time.

[Baldkin]

I seem to remember Gamel getting caught looking at strike 3 quite a bit. 3 times in one game vs the Dodgers really stood out.

 

Going over the game logs, including that game, he K'd 8 times in his last 12 AB's, 7 of them were looking.

 

I'm too lazy to go over all of them today.

 

As for the deal, I'm all for it, getting rid of pieces that weren't a fit to our organization for a piece that is is always a good thing.

[brewers4eric]

As Brewer fans, I think we all got a little bit spoiled when Braun was promoted and started knocking the baseball all over the park within a couple of weeks. The hype for Gamel was similar; he showed flashes, but he's got some things to work on in Nashville. In the meantime, we've got three or four other options for third base until he gets called back in September or earlier.

 

I have my doubts that Felipe Lopez is going to lead this team to the playoffs. The Brewers live and die by the three run homer, so inserting him into the top of the lineup might give Braun and Fielder a chance to hit a few more of them, as opposed to their chances with Counsell at the top of the order.

[zzzmanwitz]

Gamel's Splits

 

As 3B

23 G, 85 PAs, .267/.341/.493/.835

 

As DH

6 G, 27 PAs, .208/.296/.250/.546

 

As PH

19 G, 19 PAs, .143/.368/.214/.583

 

I know this is a small sample, but its just as legit of a sample size as his whole season thus far.

 

From May 22 to June 21st Gamel had played in 27 games - in 19 of those he had 3 or more plate appearances. 18 hits in 75 at bats, 28 k's, 7 walks and 1 HR. Sure that isn't every day, but that is playing quite a bit and he simply did not perform.

 

He had 15 starts at 3B over that time.

 

Since June 22nd, he has had 8 starts at 3B (23 team games).

[igor67]

Incorporating all of the existing data and Gamel playing third in Milwaukee is still the best win now move. To a very real extent the idea that Counsel and Casey are better alternatives is based on hot streaks that have now faded. Their numbers still look solid and they haven't fallen apart be any stretch, but they've also been performing at more realistic levels. While Gamel has hardly failed in his appearance despite being asked to do a number of things he's never done before. There a small argument to be made for giving him a couple of weeks to make adjustments in the minors, but that really is scarcely any different than the adjustments that other guys have to make all the time. The difference is that with sporadic playing time Gamel's adjustment period is being stretched out over a period of months instead of a few weeks like a normal player. Betting that Lopez, Casey, and Craig will out play him is pretty risky.

[wibadgers23]

So how long does it take to get from Arizona to Pittsburgh? Looks like we'll have to wait until tomorrow to see Lopez. Apparently he won't even be here by game time.

 

New infielder Felipe Lopez isn't here yet and likely won't be here before game time, although his name was written into the hitting groups for BP.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/51244812.html

[jwill535]

It has nothing to do with travel and everything to do with you life getting turned upside down. Imagine if you were at work today and they told you that you were transferred across the country to another division of that company. You would you would need some time to get everything in order, now imagine if you had a family too.

[naivin]

Especially odd since he only had to come from St louis. I'm sure he wanted to go back to AZ since that was what he was planning on last night, but wouldn't you head straight to Pitt and buy new underwear? Don't these teams have cast of thousands to help with arrangements, logistics, etc?

[Invader3K]

Is he definitely not going to be there tonight, or is there a chance we get an awesome Mench-esque mid-game arrival?

[yfinn6]

Is he definitely not going to be there tonight, or is there a chance we get an awesome Mench-esque mid-game arrival?

That was ridiculous. The cameras were following him around with Sutton going beserk as if Joe D was coming to play for the Brewers. The only thing big about Mench was the circumference of his head.

[shelmark]

Any word on when Gerut is going to show up?

[Ennder]

Any word on when Gerut is going to show up?

When they give him a chance to start a few times probably.

[naivin]

Any word on when Gerut is going to show up?

Perhaps after somebody wakes up Ken Macha.

[PeaveyFury]

I know you mods have to stick together

 

I assure you that this isn't the case. He, like myself, is probably just stunned by all the hand-wringing over getting a useful player (who's level of usefulness is certainly up for debate) and a possible sandwich pick for next to nothing.