Coco Crisp

[Rickie23Weeks]

get him...besides the great defense in CF and highlight reel plays, he has hit .297, and .300 the two previous years before his injury shortened 2006. He's a switch hitter and would be great for our leadoff man. What would it take to get him?

[billyhallfan]

Don't get me wrong, he would be an excellent option in CF, and as a leadoff man, but his .OPS for his career are like this:

 

2002 - .700

2003 - .695

2004 - .790

2005 - .810

2006 - .702

 

Career - .745

 

A career .OPS of .745 isn't all that attractive, so I don't know why I am so into getting him. And in 2006 it was his career high in stolen bases at only 22. Don't get me wrong, I think he would be an excellent option for the Brewers, but I think we are overrating him.

 

The only difference offensively between Clark and Crisp is that Crisp has speed, Clark's career .OPS is at .747, so they are equal on that, I just don't know why I want him so bad.

[bsglorydays]

I just don't know why I want him so bad

 

OPS is a nice stat, but it can't always be used. If you are looking at lead off hitters or guys who are primarily speed players, a .700ish OPS can be acceptable IMO. If OPS was the only thing that mattered, players like Juan Pierre would have no value. Obviously that's not the case.

 

Its a balancing act. If what is lacking in power can be made up for in speed in the form of taking extra bases, stolen bases, etc, you still have a very valuable player. That's probably why you like Crisp. He is capable of making things happen with his speed, even if his power numbers are lacking.

 

You can't expect every player to have an .850 OPS. There is no such thing as a flawless stat, unfortunately.

[RyDogg66]

Clarks career OPS is .747 and he is likely to be much worse than that in 2007. Crisp's career OPS is .745 and is likely to be better than that in 2007.

 

I'd say that the difference is likely to be 75-100 OPS points between the two players if both played full time CF in 2007.

[Invader3K]

Agreed. OPS gets thrown around here too much as a be all and end all stat.

 

What would it take to get Crisp anyway?

[sbrylski]

If you are looking at lead off hitters or guys who are primarily speed players, a .700ish OPS can be acceptable IMO.

 

The only way a .700 OPS can be acceptable is if .400 of it is OBP.

 

A speed player with a .700 OPS is only valuable to someone who overvalues speed. It's not all that important.

[billyhallfan]

Clark's career .OBP is .358

 

And Crisp's is .329

 

Really, the only thing Clark is worse at is speed.

[SoCalBrewfan]

Well, I'll disagree a little bit, with the premise if not the specifics. If a player is a very good percentage base stealer and prolific as well, and if he's a great defender, a speed player can be very valuable even if he has a 750 OPS. A guy like Ichiro is a good example...this year his OPS was 'only' 786 but he had 45/2 SB/CS and incredible defense in a key defensive position. He was probably one of the top outfielders in the league despite an OPS that isn't incredible, because he's off-the-charts good in exactly the things that OPS doesn't measure and because OPS overvalues OBP relative to SLG.

 

That said, neither Pierre nor Crisp fall in that category, IMO.

[sbrylski]

If a player is a very good percentage base stealer and prolific as well, and if he's a great defender, a speed player can be very valuable even if he has a 750 OPS.

 

I wasn't taking defense into account. If he plays stellar defense then it does raise his overall value. But offensively alone, speed doesn't help make a .700 OPS valuable. (This is a general statement)

 

A .750 OPS from a CF is decent, especially if he plays good defense. (This is talking about Crisp)

 

I would take Crisp over Clark, though I'd rather just add a better corner OFer and put Hall in CF.

[Invader3K]

Quote:

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though I'd rather just add a better corner OFer and put Hall in CF

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I agree with that, especially if the added corner OFer would be a "big bopper" like Carlos Lee.

[nikegolf6]

I agree with that, especially if the added corner OFer would be a "big bopper" like Carlos Lee.

 

I hate posts like this.

[Team Canada]

I hate posts like this.

 

You might try explaining why.

[DannyKmilw]

Id take him in a heartbeat, he puts the ball in play(doesnt K) has speed which our team lacks(besides Rickie). Youd have Crisp and Weeks 1 & 3 and then Hall with some speed in the 5. Someone capable of scoring from first. It also takes the pitchers mind off the hitter sometimes. I look at this team now and i see a lot of possible stranded runners just going station to station, base to base. Also would improve the D. IMO team speed and defense is more important than the dinger, round tripper.

[TooLiveBrew]

DannyK, you're clearly forgetting Corey Hart's surprising speed. I agree that our current lineup isn't blazing fast, but with Rickie, Corey, & Bill, we're hardly wearing snowshoes

[Invader3K]

Quote:

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I hate posts like this.

---

 

Please explain, since I posted what I felt was a reasonable opinion.

[DannyKmilw]

Just think the team would benifit more from defensive standpoint and it wouldnt hurt the team to add someone who could steal a base with success(SB/CS; Hall 8/9, Hart 5/8, Weeks 19/5). Yes they have speed, I guess what I mean is Id rather have Crisp over Jenks/Mench/Brady.

 

Love to see this:

1 CoCo cf

2 Hart rf

3 Weeks 2b

4 Fielder 1b

5 Hall lf

6 Estrada c

7 Koskie 3b

8 Hardy ss

 

You could plug in Gross anywhere on one of the OFers day off. But looks to good to be true. CoCo and Weeks could be the Pierre and Castillo the Marlins Had with more pop.

[aracko]

I dont see anything about Crisp that makes him suited for the leadoff spot. I like him as a player but I struggle to see him hitting leadoff with any success. Can anyone explain why they think he would be an ideal leadoff hitter? I am not challenging anyone just asking a question.

[DannyKmilw]

I like to compare him to Roberts of Baltimore, granted they dont play the same position but simular numbers before CoCo broke his hand. He has the speed, doesnt K, switch hits well. Weeks is not your ideal leadoff hitter. He is to much of a free swinger and misses far to often.

[sbrylski]

He is to much of a free swinger and misses far to often.

 

K's are the least important for the leadoff hitter. There's no runners to advance by putting the ball in play.

 

Same reason why walks are more important for a leadoff hitter. There's no runners to move over, so it doesn't matter how he reaches first.

[DannyKmilw]

Ok that last part may be true, but you cant get on base unless you make contact, and you polished defenders behind the plate so you rarely see the passed ball third strike. Cut Weeks Ks and his chances of getting on base obvisously increase. If the Brewers had pitching and defense they could afford to K as much as they do, ala the Tigers. Just simply stating Crisp is a better option at leadoff then anything the Brewers have on the roster now IMO.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Not trying to open a can of worms, but a lot of times if a guy cuts down his swing to make more contact, he loses a lot of the aggresiveness that allows him to hit the ball hard when he does make contact.

[sbrylski]

Cut Weeks Ks and his chances of getting on base obvisously increase.

 

Sure, a reduction of strikeouts would raise the players chances of reaching base, but Crisp's K rate is already low and his OBP is as well.

 

Reducing K's would likely raise the OBP, but having a low K rate doesn't necessarily translate into a high OBP.

[rluzinski]

Cut Weeks Ks and his chances of getting on base obvisously increase.

 

And his walks and power would likely decrease.

[laserbomb]

I would rather leave Hall in center and have four guys draw straws for the leadoff spot than extend much for Crisp, since it doesn't seem our spare parts will get it done. Looks like nice defense from what I know, and maybe he could bounce back a little getting used to the hand and if Boston was bad for him.

 

Don't know, this isn't the first thread here where big supporters say they don't know why they want him so badly. Although it is the offseason where Dave Roberts, Kenny Lofton and Jeff Suppan are all getting us tickled.

[joshjs]

If I wanted a speedy guy with a low OBP and no power in CF, I'd play Gwynn there.

 

I'd prefer to have Weeks, Hall or Hart there, myself. And that's what I'm hoping for. In that order.