"Let's trade Prince Fielder"

[FVBrewerFan]

The Giants should trade Lincecum, there's a lot of pitchers in the league.

[Never Outhustled]

I just didn't think it was fair for fans to criticize Prince as much as they did last offseason for the weight issue,

The results suggest everyone who criticized his weight were correct, not "idiots". He got his fat butt in shape, and now he is a dominant hitter again, and is defending better. Without the critism he might have continued to eat himself out of the league.

[jjfanec]

I'd just like to congratulate Prince for all the hard work, as he has proved his doubters/detracters wrong so far in 2009, much to the teams benefit and Brewer fans delight.

Again this has been pointed out by so many people but most everyone who wanted to trade Prince did not want to trade him because of weight concerns, production disappointment, or dislike for him as a player. It had to do with the fact that

1. He seems to be someone who will be very hard to sign long-term (see his agent and amount big hitters like him get)

2. One issue to a lesser extent is in the long-term his body-type does not seem to be one that will age well. He did a good job getting fit this year and I have never had too much of a problem with his physical condition but how many guys built like Prince succeed into their 30's without the benefit of the DH. His defense is not maybe just a little below average but what will it be like toward the end of a long term deal even if he did sign.

3. And maybe the most important. We do not have a lot of young high impact arms outside of Yo. None of the pitchers we look at as potential top-end guys are above A+ ball with the exception of Braddock but his is on a pitch count. To get good young pitching you need to trade a valuable player and Prince is the right guy for a trade. AL teams will value him because of the DH availability in the future, and teams like Boston and New York could lock him up long term. As a result we could get a very very good package for him that could fill a couple holes on the team.

[Baldkin]

Yes, Prince is a first baseman, but would he be that much more valuable if he was a right fielder?

If he played league average defense, and you use a stat like WARP (Wins above replacement player) that includes defense.

 

Right now, Prince is right at replacement level defense at first base (way better than 2 years ago, when he was below replacement level). Even average defense at first base would add over a win per year to his value.

 

His defense is so much better this year, he's already surpassed his win value total from 2007, when he hit 50 bombs.

[Pudster13]

...most everyone who wanted to trade Prince did not want to trade him because of weight concerns, production disappointment, or dislike for him as a player. It had to do with the fact that

1. He seems to be someone who will be very hard to sign long-term...

2. One issue to a lesser extent is in the long-term his body-type does not seem to be one that will age well....

3. And maybe the most important. We do not have a lot of young high impact arms outside of Yo....

This is a great post. I agree with all of your points Prince has increased his trade value a lot in the first half of 2009, therefore, it may make even MORE sense that we trade him now (before next season) because we'd be able to get the best return for him. However, now that his value IS high, I get the feeling most fans would be absolutely irate if we traded him now.

[JJHardy7]

I still don't think you can just dismiss his weight long-term. He's a great hitter and I don't doubt that one bit. I do wonder though how long of a contract he wants. Would you sign him to an 8-year deal? I don't think I would due to his weight and also his height. I really do like Prince, but I just see a large market team offering him 8-years $100 million +. I just don't feel comfortable with that. It's not a knock on him directly, but I can't think off too many guys with his stature that are successful long-term. That's not to say Prince can't do that. I just feel more comfortable with a guy of Braun's stature signed long-term than I do with a guy like Prince.

I also agree on the MVP numbers stuff. His value is pretty high now. I'd still be willing to move him if the right deal came along. I simply wouldn't trade him for nothing since he's one of the best hitters in the league right now and the team that gets him would have a decent amount of service time left with him.

[jackalope02ca]

The home run king is one of the top offensive players in the game right now. Since Mark A took over he's shown every intention of trying to put a winning team on the field and he's held nothing back at accomplishing this. The better question would be why would you trade Prince? From a Brewers perspective it would make zero sense. If you move him you get a lot of prospects. High end ones for sure but for every high end prospect that makes it there is one that either completely flops or turns into an average player at best. Teams that deal the superior player lose the deal as often or more than they win it.

[PeaveyFury]

having daddy issues

 

I just wanted to point out that I don't believe there was a SINGLE PERSON here that faulted Prince for the issues with his Dad....

[bucksbeat]

I typically avoid any trade discussions, just seems pointless. Obviously it's easy to distinguish when someone's "trade value" is high but it's never so easy when talking about the return that value will bring. Regardless of how high Prince's value is, I cannot see Doug Melvin willing to trade him until it is absolutely crystal clear that the Brewers have zero chance in signing him. Considering the Brewers have control over him through 2011, I don't see how it's even a discussion until the 2010 offseason considering the Brewers are currently within their financial "window" to win, now.

 

Finally I think the Brewers have other potential decisions to make. Who will take over for Jason Kendall and Mike Cameron in the coming year(s)? Will they keep JJ Hardy and/or Corey Hart? I just can't see the Brewers potentially losing half of their positional starting lineup and then trading Prince, while in their control.

[JJHardy7]

Considering the Brewers have control over him through 2011, I don't see how it's even a discussion until the 2010 offseason considering the Brewers are currently within their financial "window" to win, now.

I just want to make sure that I was clear...I'm not saying they should put him on the block. I am saying that if a great offer was made for him I'd consider it and do it if the price was right. I'm not saying the Brewers should absolutely trade him now. The fact is until he is signed long-term there will be discussions like this for Prince and other players in his situation.

[TheCrew07]

What's this about a financial window? How is the 80+ payroll more relevant than the talent this year? In 2010 or 11 does our payroll suddenly drop to 50 million again? Fielder's trade value doesn't go up from this point forward, it only goes down the closer he gets to FA. If either Hardy or Fielder get moved for legit pitching when they are a 1 year rental I'll eat crow, but that seems like a pretty far fetched notion. There's a large segment of the population on this site that's pretty conservative when it comes to making moves. Hardy should stay, Fielder should stay, always want to trade for name players... I personally feel that tact lacks some insight and vision simply because a team like Milwaukee isn't going to be able to keep more than a couple guys from this current core, and Yo is more important than either Hardy or Fielder. Like or not the team is on a budget, there's going to be roster turnover, that's just the nature of the beast.

 

When a team lacks pitching and isn't able to afford marquee contracts, bold moves are necessary to acquire that pitching. Gamel is going to hit, he's not some slightly above average player, he's moved slowly because he D was crappy and Braun was in front of him. Quite honestly, I'm not sure what some people are basing their opinions of Gamel on, certainly not the statistical evidence, not a comparison between Gamel and this current core when they were at the same levels in the minors, nor the anecdotal evidence from people who know the game like Don Money among others. If he doesn't stick at 3rd, he's a very good 1B tomorrow, trading Prince for pitching would have been a bold move with Gamel sliding over to 1st. Moving Hardy for pitching would have been a bold move letting Escobar play SS. Riding the players out to FA hoping to catch lightening in a bottle with the pitching... not a bold move. Even trading for Sabathia wasn't the bold move some have painted it as, it was the obvious move, he was best player out there, and giving up those prospects didn't hurt the overall depth of the organization, I'm not sure how a deal can get much safer than that.

 

I would rather move 1 Fielder, than 4 players like Escobar, Gamel, Lawrie, and Braddock. It's not that I think prospects have more value, I just don't think we have enough pitching to get this team over the top this year, nor am I adequately able to predict what happens with the roster. Moving all those minor leaguers means that either we sign Hardy and Fielder long-term and deal with 3 players eating up half the payroll (Braun, Fielder, Hardy), or we get significantly worse when they walk because there is no depth behind them. Not to mention do we become married to Weeks, he's still somewhat of an unknown, what do we with Hart? The team basically loses all of it's roster flexibility making a move of that nature.

 

I understand not every prospect is going to pan out, that's not the issue, the issue here is overall talent level and roster options. How do we win this season and get the best possible team for 2010, 2011, 2012 and so on? Note that I said TEAM, not a position by position comparison, no one is going to hit 50 HRs when Prince is gone, it will be impossible to replace his offensive production with another player. Trying to be as objective as possible, which is admittedly difficult because Hardy is my favorite Brewer, I think it's best to let Hardy and Fielder go in FA or a trade and try to build a new core around Braun and Gamel. I'd like to see the team sign some of this 2nd wave early to Braun type deals, get 7-8 years out of them, instead of the 6 they'll get from Fielder and 5 from Hardy (he came up too soon and then lost another part of a season to injury). Melvin missed out by playing it conservative through the arbitration process with most of this current core, I sincerely hope he takes a different tact in the future.

 

I'm sort of confused by Melvin, he offered money to the wrong players, got burned, and then seemed reluctant to jump back into the fire. Hopefully we don't have any more Helms, Turnbows, Clarks... we should have players with significantly more talent and upside, so if they succeed I'd like him to aggressively lock up those players instead of overpaying for pitching in the bullpen and rotation.

 

Trading Fielder had everything to do with giving value to get value, he's was/is the most valuable hitter who's the least likely to sign long-term. I didn't want to move him because he's fat, or his defense was bad, or I thought he was bully... I thought he defense negatively impacted his total value and I've been on a mission to acquire another young starter for a very long time.

[Baldkin]

Melvin hasn't played it conservative through arbitration.

 

He's offered every player a long term deal to buy out a year or two of Free Agency, they've just all rejected them -- aside from Hall and Braun.

[JJHardy7]

I'm sort of confused by Melvin, he offered money to the wrong players, got burned, and then seemed reluctant to jump back into the fire. Hopefully we don't have any more Helms, Turnbows, Clarks... we should have players with significantly more talent and upside, so if they succeed I'd like him to aggressively lock up those players instead of overpaying for pitching in the bullpen and rotation.

 

What about Riske? I agree with a lot of what you said, but I think people need to drop the three contracts you mentioned. It wasn't the difference in anything important since the contracts were pretty small. If we're an $80 million payroll, you can afford misses to the extent you mention. It shouldn't even be an issue. You could combine all those deals and they probably don't equal Hall's deal. I think times have changed. I do agree with you that it is important to not only develop studs, but also #5 type starters. I think the Suppan contract is the biggest issue because based on production vs. what you could develop that's a lot of lost money. Helms and Clark had decent to good years in Milwaukee and Turnbow as an all-star. I'd do all those deals again (maybe not Helms) just because they were very low risk if you consider the actual money spent.

[YoungGeezy]

I me it is dumb and really just makes no sense to want to trade Prince after this season or even now. Why? That the huge question to me. We do not have 1 legitement first base prospect and I'd personally move Gamel to OF before 1st base. Next, he carried us at the end of last season (along with CC) and has carried us this year, do you really think without our best leader and hitter we can compete? Braun is not enough. I'd ride Prince out til the end and try to sign him long-team and if you can't take the picks. Trust me, if we were to trade Prince soon we'd really regret it and not be nearly as competitive. Fielder is a special player and if you think that we can just fill his void with gamel and be fine your sadly mistaking. Beside LaPorta the Crew have not drafted one possible replacement for Prince. If they did offer him I'd want a Texeria or what jays want for Halladay type trade. But without Princes 40 hrs and 100+ rbi's good luck competing with a different scrub in there replacing him. The kid is 25 and this good and only getting better, no need to trade him

[Nottso]

I got about halfway through this thread and gave up. Many of the replies, and the underlying attitudes, surprised and slightly saddened me. I seem to see more of that type of behavior creeping in lately. Perhaps I'm just old and crazy, but I for one really don't care for it.

 

And mods, if this is out of line, please feel free to remove it.

[jjfanec]

I got about halfway through this thread and gave up. Many of the replies, and the underlying attitudes, surprised and slightly saddened me. I seem to see more of that type of behavior creeping in lately. Perhaps I'm just old and crazy, but I for one really don't care for it.

 

And mods, if this is out of line, please feel free to remove it.

What attitudes have you seen underlying a lot of the posts in this thread. Attitudes about Prince, the Brewers, other posters?

 

Also I just looked at some of Bostons contracts to see how that would fit them being interested in Prince. David Ortiz is locked up until 2010 so I am sure Boston would love to replace him with Prince. They also have Mike Lowell signed through 2010. Youkilis can play 1B or 3B so that gives them so real flexibility at 3rd, 1st and DH in the 2011 which is Prince's last year here unless he signs long-term.

[Invader3K]

Well, if you read any of the Boston rumors (and there are always tons of them due to the popularity of the team and the coverage they get on the four letter network), it seems like their team and fans want about every good player on the team. Justin Morneau is cited as a future target, etc. I don't know if they'll go after Prince or someone else. It's really too early to predict.

 

Not to turn this into a side rant, but it gets comical how they seem to assume every single player wants to make Fenway their home, and that their team can bankroll any player. Oh well.

[jjfanec]

Well, if you read any of the Boston rumors (and there are always tons of them due to the popularity of the team and the coverage they get on the four letter network), it seems like their team and fans want about every good player on the team. Justin Morneau is cited as a future target, etc. I don't know if they'll go after Prince or someone else. It's really too early to predict.

 

Not to turn this into a side rant, but it gets comical how they seem to assume every single player wants to make Fenway their home, and that their team can bankroll any player. Oh well.

I have not seen them linked to Morneau, maybe before he signed a 6 year deal in 2008, but not lately. They have been linked to Mauer who is a free-agent after the 2010 season. I guess I dont think it is that comical to think most players want to come and play for one the best run and best producing teams in baseball. Now obviously they cannot get everyone like they might talk but it would not be far-fetched to see them land Mauer and Prince, because they could have the money, and if either guy gets traded Boston has the prospects to trade and have shown with trading Hanley for Beckett they are not afraid to do it.

[JJHardy7]

I me it is dumb and really just makes no sense to want to trade Prince after this season or even now. Why? That the huge question to me.

 

Well...do you let him walk after 2011 and hope for picks, extend him to a huge deal, or trade him for prospects? You'll have to do one of the three. It's really that simple. If you want to give him a huge extension, that's fine, but it's clear a decision one way or another will need to be made. Prince is having a fine season and if you choose to trade him you'll be better off trading him when he's playing as well as he's capable of rather than waiting and he maybe has an off year, regresses (not saying he will), or gets hurt. I think it's a very valid question and remains until a decision is made one way or another. Nobody here (as far as I can tell) is saying we have a replacement. There's not a clear answer to this, but what is clear is that we would obviously hope to improve other spots in the organization (ie starting pitching).

[Invader3K]

Invader3K wrote:

I have not seen them linked to Morneau, maybe before he signed a 6 year deal in 2008, but not lately. They have been linked to Mauer who is a free-agent after the 2010 season. I guess I dont think it is that comical to think most players want to come and play for one the best run and best producing teams in baseball. Now obviously they cannot get everyone like they might talk but it would not be far-fetched to see them land Mauer and Prince, because they could have the money, and if either guy gets traded Boston has the prospects to trade and have shown with trading Hanley for Beckett they are not afraid to do it.

 

Yeah, I meant Mauer. You are right that they are a well run organization, but even they have their limits on how many upper echelon players they can pay.

[CheezWizHed]

I was reading Pujol's comments about Fielder this morning and this statement really jumped out at me, since Prince hasn't yet had injury issues:

 

"He's going to be a great player. Hopefully he can stay healthy."

 

It might have been an innocent statement, but for someone who hasn't had injury problems, just to throw that in... it seems like Pujols thinks Fielder's body type might lead to problems also. Or maybe I'm reading too much into it.

[I Heart Brewers]

It might have been an innocent statement, but for someone who hasn't had injury problems, just to throw that in... it seems like Pujols thinks Fielder's body type might lead to problems also. Or maybe I'm reading too much into it.

I thought the same thing, I actualy took it a step further in my head thinking that Pujols was conspiring against the Brewers and any trade endeavors by putting future weight/injury issues in the minds of any GMs with that comment. I know any competent GM would consider that regardless of any players comments but I guess I'm weird like that. Pujols is also arguably the biggest division rival so I guess thats where I get my apprehension from. That and his dislike for how some of the Brewers admire their long balls.

 

That last sentence just doesn't sound right...

[Nottso]

What attitudes have you seen underlying a lot of the posts in this thread. Attitudes about Prince, the Brewers, other posters?

Other posters. It looked to me like the original poster was kinda jumped on. Of course, it could just be me.

[Fatter than Joey]

The original post was inaccurate and misrepresented a lot of the arguments/discussion regarding trading Prince.

[pretendastronaut]

I was reading Pujol's comments about Fielder this morning and this statement really jumped out at me, since Prince hasn't yet had injury issues:

 

"He's going to be a great player. Hopefully he can stay healthy."

 

It might have been an innocent statement, but for someone who hasn't had injury problems, just to throw that in... it seems like Pujols thinks Fielder's body type might lead to problems also. Or maybe I'm reading too much into it.

 

It's hard to know if he was talking about Prince's frame for sure. I mean realistically you could say that about anyone with potential in the league, regardless of their frame.