Future offense of Fielder, Braun, and 6 scrubs - good enough?

[NYChez]

The highly successful mid-2000's Red Sox teams had offenses consistently of a dominant Ortiz/Ramirez middle of the order, a couple other good hitters in Damon and Varitek, and dime-a-dozen guys like Bill Mueller, Keith Millar, Trot Nixon, Mark Bellhorn, and Doug Mietntkiewietz.

 

If the Brewers sign Fielder to a huge, long-term deal (I think it's better than 50/50 than Mark A will force this to happen even if Melvin objects), then this could be the approach. The other 6 spots in the lineup would be cheap guys from the farm system or journeymen veterans. This would involve letting everyone else walk (Hardy, Hart, Weeks) now and through the end of Fielder's and Braun's deals. They might even need to trade guys who hit arbitration, not just when they hit free agency. All the other money spent on the team (besides Fielder and Braun) would go toward pitching.

 

The question is: would this be a better approach than letting Fielder go, and instead of having $18 mil a year locked into one position, have $6 mil available to fill each of 3 positions?

 

My feeling is that I can't imagine getting more bang for the buck out of $18 million than having a 1.000 OPS, 130 RBI, clubhouse leader who provides lineup protection for your .950 OPS, 115 RBI, face of the franchise.

 

Being able to afford the likes of Mike Cameron, Braden Looper, and Trevor Hoffman wouldn't make up for the loss of one of the best hitters in the game - especially when considering that those are our successful big contracts. There's just as much chance that the extra savings would go to a Bill Hall or Jeff Suppan.

 

Having two huge hitters and a bunch of youngsters and scrubs has a history of being a successful recipe. I hope we end up going that route.

[dlk9s]

If the other players are scrubs, then no, that's not good enough. If they are good, yet relatively inexpensive players, then yes, the team will be good enough.

[Ennder]

We have a lot of serious offensive prospects in the minors so I really don't think this scenario is likely.

[nate82]

Prince being signed long term is actually something I believe will happen. It will cost the Brewers $2.5M to buyout both Hall and Suppan for the '11 season. That is a huge amount of savings for the Brewers that year. $19.5M will be coming off the books in '11 which clears a lot of room for Fielder the question then is will Lawrie be ready for the season following the '11 year? Also increases being paid to Gamel, Gallardo, Parra, and probably a free agent signing next year or in the year following that may take over some of that money. Obviously Kendall and Cameron won't be on the team in '11 but both might be on the team in the '10 season.

 

There is money coming off the books in '11 that will allow for the Brewers to make a run at Fielder. I could see Melvin making a run at Fielder before the '11 season and if a deal can not be done he would either trade Fielder in '11 or just ride out the storm to the end of the season with Fielder.

[dadofandrew]

Scrubs no. Average bats, certainly. An average offense will be 8th/9th in the league, and a duo of Ryan and Prince could easily take 6 average guys up to 3rd or 4th.

 

I was reminded tonight of how young Prince is. I would not sign him long-term to 35, but 30-31 would be fine.

[logan82]

I think that Gamel will probably be better than any hitter we have right now not named Fielder or Braun. The only other player we currently have who might be better in the near future might be Weeks. Most reports indicate that Lawrie will be a very good hitter as well. Both of our catching prospects could probably outhit Kendall. A small step back going from Hardy to Escobar and a bigger one going from Cameron to whoever. As long as Fielder and Braun stay around together, we will probably improve offensively in most spots.

 

I would be little more open to signing Fielder for a couple of his free agent years if the market stays the same. Although his defense seems to have improved, guys who couldn't field well didn't get as big of contracts as expected last offseason. To be honest, even without Fielder I think our offense will be better than average.

[TooLiveBrew]

I was reminded tonight of how young Prince is. I would not sign him long-term to 35, but 30-31 would be fine.

 

I was reminded that as well. I've just gotten used to the guy being a big leaguer. It hit me when they were talking about him being a dad. I think Prince's next 5 or so seasons hold tremendous value, and while I'd have him stay in Milwaukee, he might be able to provide so much value in a trade that you just have to move him. The guys he'd net, & money saved by not signing him, could help keep a young core together for a long time in Milwaukee. Long-term I think I would prefer dealing Fielder (not this season) over dealing guys like Escobar, Gamel, Salome, & Lawrie for a veteran pitcher. Imo there really isn't a team positioned better than the Brewers for the next 5 or so seasons in the NL Central, and I'd hate to thin out the incredible depth Melvin & the scouting department have assembled to roll the dice on a one or two-year fix.

[PeaveyFury]

Before this year, the major concern was that Prince's defense would continue to decline, making his value at 1B greatly reduced and making him better suited as a DH. He's taken such huge strides in the field this year, though, that he's certainly making it possible to think he could stick there for a few more years.

[Diskono]

Before this year, the major concern was that Prince's defense would continue to decline, making his value at 1B greatly reduced and making him better suited as a DH. He's taken such huge strides in the field this year, though, that he's certainly making it possible to think he could stick there for a few more years.

I agree, but I'm still a little concerned. I've thought many times about trading Prince for a top-of-the-rotation starter, and then finding scrap-heap, AAAA mashers like this guy to play 1B until another prospect takes over. Not saying I'd definitely do that, but I do feel like 1B is a very easily replaceable position.

[Invader3K]

I don't believe we'll get a top of a rotation starter for Prince, at least anyone the Brewers can control for more than a couple years. Everyone talks about getting Matt Cain or someone like that, but teams don't trade guys like that anymore. Young cheap starters that are actually good are too valuable to teams nowadays. I don't want a couple prospects at this point for one of the best hitters in the game...I want an upper tier starting pitcher and/or a projectable high ceiling hitter, and since that probably won't happen, I don't want to see Prince traded.

[JoeHova]

Prince is worth far more than Cain, I wish the "we'd be blessed to get Cain for Fielder" meme would die.

[Ennder]

Yeah I wouldn't want Cain for Fielder at all, Cain's ERA this year is a mirage, he hasn't really changed and isn't an ace. He has logged a lot of innings at a young age as well and I'd be more worried about him falling off than Fielder at this point.

[Invader3K]

I think there's virtually no chance SF trades Cain at this juncture. We'd have to probably take on one of their bigger contracts just to make the salary even out. Also, the proposal for Cain doesn't address the gaping hole we'd have in our four spot without Fielder.

[joepepsi]

The highly successful mid-2000's Red Sox teams had offenses consistently of a dominant Ortiz/Ramirez middle of the order, a couple other good hitters in Damon and Varitek, and dime-a-dozen guys like Bill Mueller, Keith Millar, Trot Nixon, Mark Bellhorn, and Doug Mietntkiewietz.

I think you are underestimating the seasons many of those players gave the Red Sox. In 2004 Mueller, Millar, Nixon, and Bellhorn all posted OPS's over .800. In '03 Millar's OPS was .820, Mueller's .938, and Nixon's .975.

 

But I agree with your general point. It's better to spend $18 million on a true star player then to try and spread around $6 million each to 3 average veterans. The Orioles have tried this for the last 10 years.

 

Keeping Braun and Prince as the center of the offense is the best idea. What others have posted holds true...the team already has Gamel, Weeks, and McGehee to provide good support. Adding in youngsters as they come up, and filling holes with inexpensive role players like Cat can make this a very good offense for several seasons.

[FVBrewerFan]

I don't think it's a question of Fielder and scrubs vs several mid-level salaried vets. As has been said, position players can be filled with inexpensive talent like Gamel, McGehee, Weeks, Escobar, Salome/Lucroy, etc.

 

The real issue is this. If you sign Fielder to a huge contract, is there enough money to sign Gallardo long term PLUS pay another big time starter? That would be 4 big contracts (Braun, Fielder, Gallardo, Pitcher X) for a small-market team. I suppose in theory you can hope that the #1/#2 type starter can come up through the system. That would be ideal, I just don't believe we have anyone that will fit the bill in the next several years.

 

If they can sign Fielder, it would mean no more big contracts for a FA closer (Gagne, Hoffman) or #4 type starters (Suppan, Looper) They would really need to do everything else internally, with the exception of scrap heap finds like Coffey, DeFelice, etc.

 

In no way do I want to "go for it" every year and literally give away the farm. But at some point relatively soon, this team needs an ace to have a legit shot at the World Series.

[Diskono]

I don't believe we'll get a top of a rotation starter for Prince, at least anyone the Brewers can control for more than a couple years. Everyone talks about getting Matt Cain or someone like that, but teams don't trade guys like that anymore. Young cheap starters that are actually good are too valuable to teams nowadays. I don't want a couple prospects at this point for one of the best hitters in the game...I want an upper tier starting pitcher and/or a projectable high ceiling hitter, and since that probably won't happen, I don't want to see Prince traded.

I'll admit that my post was based on a very, very big "if". Matt Cain (career WHIP higher than Dave Bush, to put things into perspective) alone wouldn't get it done for me, so I would expect at least another player in addition. Unless they're willing to part with Lincecum, the Giants probably aren't the best trade partner.

[GB12]

I want Gallardo locked up before we start talking long term with Prince.

[endaround]

Gallardo will have less than 3 years of service time after this season meaning he's Brewer property for four more years. That is long term for a pitcher.

[dadofandrew]

Whenever possible, go one year at a time with pitchers. Give Yo's youth, that goes double for him.

[owbc]

I'm not sure how others feel, but to me, the thought of Prince Fielder in a Red Sox or Yankees jersey is just sickening. It was easy enough to get over CC since he was only around for a few months, but I remember Prince when he was wearing a Beloit Snappers jersey. From there, it's been amazing to watch his career progression as he continues to prove his critics wrong. He accomplished a 50 HR season, a walkoff HR during the last week of a pennant race, and now has won the HR derby which is guaranteed to send his stardom to its highest level yet.

 

Of course, this has its consequences for Brewers fans. Many skeptics were converted last night and now want to keep Prince. However, the fans/management of the other 29 teams also witnessed the show and are well aware that players of his caliber rarely stay in a small market like Milwaukee.

 

That being said, Prince is also a witness to crowds of 35,000 + every night at Miller Park. I'm sure he remembers the standing ovations that he got after he started slow in 2006. He appears comfortable with his teammates--especially Ryan Braun--and of course Ryan adds protection in the lineup as well. Having Gamel bat behind Fielder will eventually help as well. Prince is also soft spoken and may not be comfortable with the media circus that often occurs in the big markets. But in the end, money talks. As long as Mark A. owns the team, the Brewers will be able to pay Fielder and will be able to field a competitive team. We offered $100 million to CC, so we know they are willing to put money on the table.

 

I will be very disappointed if Fielder is not signed to a long term extension.

[chuckiehacks]

Many skeptics were converted last night and now want to keep Prince. However, the fans/management of the other 29 teams also witnessed the show and are well aware that players of his caliber rarely stay in a small market like Milwaukee.

I highly doubt that the Home Run Derby changed the opinion of any one in the front office of the Brewers or any other team. Maybe this year has affected people's idea of how long Prince can play 1st as opposed to DH, but I don't think any GMs called Doug last night to inquire about this Fielder guy.

 

If the choice is simply "do I want Prince on the Brewers or not" I think we'd all vote yes. However, once you factor in cost, what you could get in return and who you could plug in at first the choice isn't so black and white.

 

That's the downsde of homegrown talent - fans get emotionally attached. Maybe a Fielder trade will give us the chance to get attached to some more young guys, maybe even some that can pitch.

[joepepsi]

I'd love to see Prince signed as a Brewer up to about his age 30 season. After that they should probably let him walk.

[Baldkin]

Prince won't sign a 3 year extension, though.

 

He'll be 27 after 2011, and he'll be looking at 100+million dollar 5+ year deals in the FA market. As much as I'd love to see him stay, I just don't think the Brewers can compete with that.

[joepepsi]

Yeah, you're right. He'll want a 7-10 year deal most likely. I suppose the only is to rip up what will be a one year deal after this season and see if he'll sign a 5 or 6 year extension. My guess is that won't happen.

[Invader3K]

I could see them offering up to a 5 year, $100 million deal, or something along those lines...which Boras will inevitably pass up when the Red Sox or someone offer him 6 years and $130 million or something crazy like that.