Solutions to Our Problems: Present and Future...

[ryanbraun75]

Well guys after yet another game lost to the cardinals and another game we fall behind them in the race for the NL central i'm seriously looking at our team and i'm not only concerned for the remainder of the season but for our future as well.

 

We are getting not nearly enough production from the catcher's spot, shortstop, or right field. I'm just tired of seeing corey and jj and jason kendall doing absolutly nothing in games offensivly and just getting a free pass just because of their track record. We have gotta try something new. And the pitching staff: Can we really expect Yo to completely carry our pitching staff this year and in the future? The kid can only do so much.. I don't know what to think about this team and some of these players as we move forward.

 

Casey McGehee has proven to me that he deserves a shot to be in the brewers plans for the future and for the rest of the season.. Mat Gamel i believe is going to be a stud at 3rd or wherever he may play, Escobar is an elite defender with speed and he is becoming a pretty damn good hitter as well... Ryan and Prince have already proven they are part of the future as well.. The catchers spot is still a little dim even tho salome is starting to warm up in AAA and the outfield is a mess with Cain being hurt this year and corey just seemingly not wanting to hit anymore..

 

What are some of your views on what the brewers have for the rest of the season and moving forward into the future?? Who should stay and who should go and who can give us a spark to start winning some games?

[nate82]

1st a lead off hitter is needed there currently is no one in the lineup other than Counsell who is a lead off hitter. Hardy should be batting lower in the lineup the same with Hart. I would love to see the Brewers pickup two more bats for the lineup. Need at least someone who can bat leadoff or someone who can bat behind Fielder. Kendall is going to stay at catcher for the rest of the season and next year. I don't see Rivera getting much time behind the plate since his defense isn't that great behind the plate. Lucroy is probably the catcher you should be looking at and not Salome. Salome is going to have to play in AAA again next year if he doesn't get better at calling games and handling pitchers. I just don't see Salome as the starting catcher for the Brewers next year it will probably be Kendall again.

 

Hart probably should have been traded in the offseason but I'm not sure what Melvin would have gotten for Hart in the offseason probably not anything to significant. Gamel will probably be either be the starting 3B next year or the starting RF/LF next year. McGehee will also probably see time as the starting 3B or RF next year also. The Brewers do need some pitching help. I do see Hardy being traded in the offseason to help with that along with Hart being traded Cameron will probably also be brought back for next year.

 

There are some minor pitchers available in the trade market right now and there will be more in the offseason. There are some bats available for Melvin to go out and get but I believe Melvin will try to fill that hole internally and then try and find some pitching help in the trade market.

[The Truth]

Not yet convinced Mighty Casey is a legit starter long-term, we'll see if he's really a .300 hitter as time goes by. At the least he'd be a great supersub/utility guy for several years. Escobar is the lead-off guy with speed we need, which will enable Weeks to hit in a more natural spot for him next season (5th or 6th) and we gotta pray Weeks stays healthy next season. Hardy will be traded for pitching, hopefully in the off-season as he'll bring more then. Gamel is the 3B for years to come unless Melvin is stupid enough to trade him...

 

I'm not convinced this year's Brewers can truely contend for a World Series championship this season without trading away most of their best prospects for Halladay, Vasquez and Dunn (i.e. they need 2 pitchers and a power bat) and I would not advocate mortgaging the future like that for one chance at a title, when we have superb talent in the minors coming up that can help us remain contenders for 5-6 years (through Braun's contract)

[The Truth]

I would add: I think the future is bright for 2010-2011: we will either have Prince Fielder or be able to get a lot in trade for him. Trading Hardy in the off-season will bring in more talent. Lawrie will likely be in MLB by 2011. Braun-Lawrie-Escobar-Gamel plus Gallardo and pitchers brought in, in trades for Prince-Hardy-maybe Weeks is a strong nucleus.

[JoeDirt]

I don't think it's time to panic. Look on the bright side, we do have a GM with a pretty good track record and a new owner who is willing to back the team. Not everything is bad but lately it's been seeming to be one bad thing or the other. Namely the pitching has been weaker than hoped but what could we honestly expect with the guys they had it all pinned on. I looked the World Series winners since the Wild Card was entered into play and the team with the highest team ERA to ever win it was the 2000 New York Yankees at 4.76. They won 87 games during the regular season. That team also hit 205 bombs and batted .277 as a team. Right now the crew are hitting .255 with 96 hr's in 83 games (on pace for 187). Their pitching staff's ERA is 4.48, which isn't terrible but is not very good. In 2008 the Brewers hit .253 and swatted 198 HR. Their staff ERA was 3.87.

I am troubled that we haven't re-signed Prince yet. I really will hate to see him go off and become just a DH. I think he would stay here if we put the money on the table. I was thinking we could start up collections at the games, every dollar a fan donates Attanasio donates 2 or something. Don't just brush off trading Prince just like every other big name that's ever left Milwaukee. We have to make a stand and keep Braun and Fielder together. If we have those two guys to build around the pitching will come through the organization. Probably not this year but at least you know that it won't be the last time Fielder and Braun would play together on the crew.

Hardy and Hart will be up and down this year. It's okay I don't think we should give up on these guys yet. We should figure out what to do with Gamel. Start him or send him down to play. I think we shouldn't have traded TG2 and we would have had our leadoff/4th outfielder type. I feel like the business side is coming out more now because the once fun-loving clubhouse is now made out to be like they are in utter chaos. We've seen some Power 50 casualties like Brad Nelson and TG2.

I bet Escobar is amazing but Hardy is still the guy for me. He's young (26) and already has put up 20+ HR in a MLB season 2 times. Also I like the way he plays the game, isn't flashy but gets the job done and has a strong arm as well. If anything try to move Hardy to 2nd base but I think that would anger him. I don't know about Hart. He seems like he is still a good enough athlete and young enough to be worth a shot at keeping. He's a potential 20/20 guy... not bad for a 12th round pick.

Then we get to the staff. Short on starters. When you have a 23 year old kid and a lefty with no long track record of success in the bigs (Parra) pinned as your hopes to make a run at the Division I think those goals are unrealistic. I think they can do it but they will need a lot of help. I don't see a bullpen with a Smith and Naverson or a rotation with McClung or Burns getting us into the post season again.

Our offense will carry us at times but in the end it's going to come down to those big games where we'll need to shut them down on. Tonight was a perfect example of how Wainwright just outpitched our best pitcher and our offense couldn't bail us out. Mike Cameron getting hit by the ball in play from Kendall really ticked me off. I think he's a good enough athlete and that ball was not hit that hard for him to not be able to get out of the way.

I think Macha needs to get with it. I mean he needs to realize how we did it last year and in the past when Ned Yost was by bringing those guys along as a group. I mean Hardy-Hart-Fielder-Braun and Weeks. Playing together in Beloit and Huntsville for those years really was a special thing. They won league titles on the rise. So keep em together and keep em happy. Now with the way that Gamel is being handeled it feels like it's more of a crapshoot out there with the younger guys. I don't think that they should be a shoo in but they have earned the playing time by performing in the past. We need to keep bringing along people when they are ready and let them compete for the spots and hopefully Macha and Melvin have a good plan in mind.

All and all it's fun to watch the Crew in a pennant race. We probably won't land another CC but it wouldn't hurt to do something that wouldn't empty out our minors. Luckily the all-star break is coming up and they will have plenty of time to think about it. We just have to think WWJD (Jack Z).

[FVBrewerFan]

It's interesting to me that almost the entire discussion revolves around position players. This team will not win the World Series this year or in the near future with the current rotation. (And by current I'm including Bush and Parra.) You have a #1 and a stream of mediocrity after that. And no knock on Gallardo, but he's not exactly a "tested under fire" proven #1 starter.

 

We can talk about Kendall, Hardy, Hart, etc. We can talk about the chances of Fielder staying long-term. Sure, all those things matter. But no matter how that turns out, this team will not win the World Series with Gallardo, Suppan, and Looper being the three guys you put out there in the playoffs.

 

I give Mark A./Melvin a pass this year. See what they really have in Parra and Bush before you spend a ton of money on a starting pitcher. But the time has come. I don't see anyone in the system who can be a #1 or #2 type starter next year, or probably even the year after that.

 

Trade or let the contract expire for Hall, Cameron, Suppan, Kendall and probably Hardy and/or Hart. Maybe you have a shot at Fielder, I doubt it. Now you are left with very manageable contracts at almost every position. Gamel, McGehee, Escobar,Salome/Lucroy, etc. That should put them in position to trade for or sign a younger top of the rotation type of starter, and another starter who is close to that. Maybe that 2nd guy comes up through the system which would help.

 

If they don't do that, they will continue to be an entertaining team to watch- always with a glimmer of hope. But they won't get to the finish line, yet alone win it all.

[Invader3K]

As far as Prince Fielder, they'll make a run at re-signing him, but if he hits free agency, you know some team like the Red Sox will offer some insane contract that he won't be able to say no to...just the reality of being a mid-market team in MLB. We're lucky we have Braun wrapped up now.

[chadomac]

I think we COULD win the wild card even with our shambles of a rotation if a few things swung in our favor... but I wouldn't count on it. The problem is I don't see how we're going to get a top notch starter without giving up a lot of our farm system... and I don't really want to get rid of Escobar or Gamel.

 

I also think signing Prince to anything beyond a 2 or 3 year extension would be a huge mistake... and I don't see why he would do that rather than just wait til after next season and then sign a huge 6 year deal with the Red Sox.

 

If Hardy isn't willing to move to 2B or 3B, I believe they'll let him walk after the 2010 season. I think they'll probably let Weeks walk as well unless we are able to sign him to a relatively cheap deal. I think we'll have someone ready to play 2B for us by the time Weeks is gone... but I'm not sure where we're going to find a 1B from. Gamel and Escobar will be starting on the left side of the infield.

 

As far as the outfield goes, we have Braun and probably Lorenzo Cain. I'm sure another outfielder (much like the 2B situation) will fall into place by the time we need one. The outfield doesn't concern me much.

 

I basically think we're going to need to find a future 1B and pitching over the next few years. Especially pitching... I'm really not sure where it's going to come from. It seems like we are jinxed as far as bringing through pitching prospects and the ones we do have aren't going to be ready for the majors until several years from now.

 

Bottom line... keep Gamel and Escobar but trade whatever other prospects you have to try and get some pitching on this team. As soon as possible.

[brewmann04]

I wonder how glad the Brewers are that Hart did not thake Their Offer to a long term deal.

They need to move Hart and Hardy in the Offseason for quality Major league Ready Pitching while the youngsters Below 2a move up the Ladder.

[ClubLevel]

Most of the "fans" (who just started being fans in the last 2 years) were spoiled by last season's success and the CC trade.

 

My hope is they complete this season with the guys they have. If they don't make the playoffs, not a big deal. As it's been said in this thread, the future is bright. No need to hurt our chances for years to come for another 1st round playoff exit.

[joepepsi]

The payroll is too high for a small market team hovering around .500.

 

They are paying out about $24 million for Hall, Hardy, Hart, Riske, and Kendall. That's nearly 1/3rd of the payroll. None of them are producing at even an replacement level.

 

Suppan, Cameron, and Hoffman are bringing down another 1/3rd of the payroll but they at least are contributing on some level. Still, it's hard to justify paying these three this kind of money if the team is under .500 as the deadline approaches.

 

Going to 2010 it seems they can't afford to keep most of these players. Maybe Suppan and Hoffman (if he's willing), but the rest might have to go, even if they eat money, just to get some play back in the payroll. The 2009 team would be just as good with replacement level or rookie players in place of Hall, Hardy, Hart, and Kendall.

[brewmann04]

I think the brewers best time to make a trade is in the Off Season where maybe a few GM might Forget about how Bad Hall ,Hart and Hardy played. I would not trade any of our top prospects or top lower level Pitchers mainly because we have more than one hole to Fill this season unlike last year.

[kramnoj]

They are paying out about $24 million for Hall, Hardy, Hart, Riske, and Kendall. That's nearly 1/3rd of the payroll. None of them are producing at even an replacement level.

 

How are you defining replacement level? If you look at one of the sites that does track that http://www.fangraphs.com/...pe=6&season=2009&month=0 , all are performing at or above replacement level.

 

It's certainly not impressive to perform near replacement level, but too often when fans say player x isn't performing at replacement level, it is just exaggeration. Hardy should do better, Hart already has more walks than he did last year and is on pace to have more than he did 2 years ago, Hall isn't really a factor at this point (which is a waste of dollars, but isn't actively hurting the Brewers on the field much at this point), the bullpen is mostly doing fine without Riske, and Kendall is just an older version of Kendall.

[Hate those Rodents]

Not sure if this is OT for this thread, but would you guys advocate risking signing Rich Harden in the off-season?

[gobrew23]

I also think signing Prince to anything beyond a 2 or 3 year extension would be a huge mistake... and I don't see why he would do that rather than just wait til after next season and then sign a huge 6 year deal with the Red Sox.

I believe Fielder is under the Brewers control for 2 years following this season.

 

 

(edit: code cleanup --1992)

[gobrew23]

From what I understood the Brewers signed Prince to a 2-year deal, buying out his first two years of arbitration. I thought he would have one more year with the Brewers after that.

EDIT: According to this SI article from the offseason Prince will be arby eligible again for the 2011 season and can become a free agent after that season.

[1992casey]

gobrew23 is right. Fielder is under contract through 2010, but he's under the Brewers' control through 2011.

[zzzmanwitz]

Touche guys... i suck. I need to get my facts straight.

[joepepsi]

They are paying out about $24 million for Hall, Hardy, Hart, Riske, and Kendall. That's nearly 1/3rd of the payroll. None of them are producing at even an replacement level.

 

How are you defining replacement level? If you look at one of the sites that does track that http://www.fangraphs.com/...pe=6&season=2009&month=0 , all are performing at or above replacement level.

 

It's certainly not impressive to perform near replacement level, but too often when fans say player x isn't performing at replacement level, it is just exaggeration. Hardy should do better, Hart already has more walks than he did last year and is on pace to have more than he did 2 years ago, Hall isn't really a factor at this point (which is a waste of dollars, but isn't actively hurting the Brewers on the field much at this point), the bullpen is mostly doing fine without Riske, and Kendall is just an older version of Kendall.

If I'm reading fangraphs correctly, Hardy is 1.2 wins above replacement level, Hart, .8, Kendall, .2, and Hall, .1. So your point is taken: they are all producing right around replacement level. I overstated my position, I suppose. So let me try again. As the deadline approaches, if it appears this team is only .500 team, then they could still be a .500 team by jettisoning these 4 and saving some money.

[FVBrewerFan]

The payroll is too high for a small market team hovering around .500.

 

They are paying out about $24 million for Hall, Hardy, Hart, Riske, and Kendall. That's nearly 1/3rd of the payroll. None of them are producing at even an replacement level.

 

Suppan, Cameron, and Hoffman are bringing down another 1/3rd of the payroll but they at least are contributing on some level. Still, it's hard to justify paying these three this kind of money if the team is under .500 as the deadline approaches.

 

Going to 2010 it seems they can't afford to keep most of these players. Maybe Suppan and Hoffman (if he's willing), but the rest might have to go, even if they eat money, just to get some play back in the payroll. The 2009 team would be just as good with replacement level or rookie players in place of Hall, Hardy, Hart, and Kendall.

I agree, that's why I'm not advoacting another rent-a-pitcher for top farm talent. They need to clean out most of these bad salaries this year and next. But my point is replacing Hardy and/or Hart won't have a significant effect on winning the World Series. My previous post was looking at the big picture. What will it really take to win the World Series in the next few years. (I'm assuming we all agree that IS the goal???) The only way that happens is to acquire or develop #1 and a #3 starting pitchers to go along with Yo. I just don't see getting to the promised land without that no matter how much you change the line-up.

[1992casey]

It's generally not necessary to quote entire posts. Please stick to quoting the part that's relevant. Thanks. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[chadomac]

gobrew23 is right. Fielder is under contract through 2010, but he's under the Brewers' control through 2011.

 

This is something I'm very happy to be wrong about. Now we just need to magically attain some pitching.

[Ennder]

Half a season of baseball is way too little to judge a player on so I really don't think anything has changed at this point. Hart is reaching the point where I don't expect much out of him in the future, Kendall was never a good hitter so nothing really changed there and JJ doesn't worry me even a little bit.

 

The Cardinals aren't a great team and the Cubs seem destined to be banged up all season so the division is still very winnable. I had us down for mid to high 80 wins to start the season and I don't see much reason to change that expectation at this point by more than a win or 2.

[TooLiveBrew]

Hart is reaching the point where I don't expect much out of him in the future

 

This was pointed out elsewhere, but Hart has actually been very solid over his last ~ 100 PA. I'm glad he turned down the Brewers' extension offer, but I'm not as convinced as many that Corey's just a mirage of a good player at this point. I think he's going to either be the Brewers' RF for the forseeable future, or dealt for pitching help.

[Ennder]

He might be that serviceable but unspectacular level player like Jenkins was after his injuries but I just don't think he has the plate discipline to become an 'all-star' quality RF at this point.