Roy Halladay

[jjfanec]

YoungGeezy wrote:

2. This is a full out bidding war so there is no getting away save and not giving up that much. It will end up costing us Escobar, Gamel, Lawrie, and maybe even Braddock because they also want a Pitcher and he is our closet, most talented one. If we are not will to give them it, well the Angels, Rex Sox, Yankees, Dodgers, Phillies, Mets all may be willing to give up that much. He has been one of the most dominate pitchers over the last 7-8 years it is going to take a lot. If I was GM of the Bluejays I'd be doing the same thing and tell a team this is what I want and if you can't give it to me I can get it somewhere else. It's not like the Jays need to trade him, they can keep him and still get a lot for him next year around the trade deadline. They hold all the cards and it is going to take a lot. An Escobar, Lawrie, Parra trade won't cut it.

If they are asking for our three best prospects and then one of if not our best pitching prospects count me out and count the Brewers out. You cannot give up 4 prospects that valuable for a year and a half of a pitcher. I doubt any team is willing to give up their 3 best prospects and another very high ceiling guy for Halladay. We would be giving up BA number 19,34, and 81 ranked prospects along with a guy who could be a top 100 guy if he stays healthy this year and is stretched out a little more.

 

The reality is the other teams you mentioned do not have (according BA's rankings) the top end guys we do, so why would we offer so much. The Yankees do not have that many quality prospects, the Mets top prospect is rated 30 and then the next best is in the 47, so they are pretty close. The Dodgers only have 2 prospects in the top 100 and the first is in the 40's. The Phillies have 4 guys in the 45-75 range. The Angels only have one top 100 prospect. The Red Sox could package something with their young talent but I am sure the Jays would up their price for a team in the division.

[wibadgers23]

It would be rather ridiculous to trade Gamel AND Escobar AND Lawrie. If Toronto really expects that type of a package, then they can just stick it. A piece centered around one of those guys would be appropriate, not all three.

[endaround]

The Yankees and Sox have more pitchers than they can put on their teams right now. The chance either of them gets into a bidding war for Hallday is slim. The Yankees are in a holding pattern due to injury issues and the Sox hope to move at least one pitcher.

[southpaw121505]

If they are asking for our three best prospects and then one of if not our best pitching prospects count me out and count the Brewers out. You cannot give up 4 prospects that valuable for a year and a half of a pitcher.

I agree, I'm hesitant to trade two of Escobar, Gamel and Lawrie let alone all 3, add in Braddock and my decision just got really easy, move on. If Haren could be had for less I'd prefer that.

 

 

endaround wrote:

---

If the Brewers get Halladay they can't trade Parra.

 

 

I agree, I'd rather not trade Parra right now because having him cheap and hoping he can get it together is more valuable to use then tossing him in a trade as a project, unless someone really values him.

[nate82]

So the Yankees give up one good cheap player and a decent pitching prospect for Well's insane contract? They aren't fools.

I swear you never read whole posts you just skim over things and look at what you want to see. If you read the whole post you would have noticed I said it wasn't sure the Yankees would do that trade. Plus the Yankees are also getting Lucroy in the deal so I know for sure you just glanced over it and made an assumption about the trade. Reading more than two or three lines helps a lot in knowing what the poster is talking about.

[endaround]

No I read it. Lucroy doesn't change anything. Wells has the worst contract in the major leagues right now. The Jays could package Halladay and Wells and still have to throw in money for a team to take it without giving up anything in return.

[jjfanec]

Wells has the worst contract in the major leagues right now.

I agree with what you were saying about the whole trade but a little off-topic. Wells contract is terrible but is it as bad as Sorianos? Soriano is already 33 and declining and he is under contract through 2014. That is a terrible contract as well. I would say they are about the same.

[sargennm]

I agree with what you were saying about the whole trade but a little off-topic. Wells contract is terrible but is it as bad as Sorianos? Soriano is already 33 and declining and he is under contract through 2014. That is a terrible contract as well. I would say they are about the same.

Uggh, one of the few the advantages of being small market.

[nate82]

No I read it. Lucroy doesn't change anything. Wells has the worst contract in the major leagues right now. The Jays could package Halladay and Wells and still have to throw in money for a team to take it without giving up anything in return.

I don't believe the Yankees really like Kennedy or he would be up with their team right now. Swisher has been nice for them but he was the backup plan incase they didn't get Teixeira. Right now he is just trade bait and with the Yankees having an uncertain OF in 2010 I'm not 100% sure they wouldn't take on Wells. Next year Damon will be gone and Nady is probably done I don't see the Yankees bringing back Matsui next year so the Yankees will need another OF. Wells makes sense for them since they would have a potential OF of Melky, Jackson, Swisher, Gardner. I don't see any FA the Yankees could pick up next year other than Holliday or Cameron and if they take Cameron Jackson would more than likely start the year in the minors then.

 

Plus Lucroy does change it. The cost of having Lucroy is basically zero for the Yankees. If Lucroy has plus defense and is just average offensively his value for his first three years should be that of Wells's contract. Maybe the Yankees would need another prospect thrown in for losing Kennedy or I was thinking of adding Hardy into the deal. If Hardy would be added into the deal the Yankees would be able to move Aroid to DH and have either Jeter or Hardy play 3B.

 

I don't see the Yankees keeping Matsui and Damon next year because both are DH's right now and the Yankees already have two DH's in Posada and Rodriguez. The Yankees need to add an OF next year which one is going to cost in the $20m a year range. The Yankees won't start the year with Melky, Jackson, and Gardner as their starting 3 OF's. So the Yankees do need an OF and Wells makes sense for them. Lucroy's future value should equal that of what Wells's contract is and if you add in another marginal prospect for the Yankees it should equal that of what Kennedy would have equaled. Someone like an Anundsen or Wooten would be enough to get the value back that was lost from Kennedy.

[bobloblaw]

How about this trade, we will give you Halladay for free and we will pick up his salary this year and next. The catch is that after this season you have to trade divisions with us and go up against the Sox, Yankees and Rays every year. Sound fair?

[nate82]

How about this trade, we will give you Halladay for free and we will pick up his salary this year and next. The catch is that after this season you have to trade divisions with us and go up against the Sox, Yankees and Rays every year. Sound fair?

I'll take that trade. That would mean the Brewers get to bring up Salome and have him DH next year instead of hoping he improves defensively between now and the beginning of next year.

[wibadgers23]

bobloblaw[/b]]How about this trade, we will give you Halladay for free and we will pick up his salary this year and next. The catch is that after this season you have to trade divisions with us and go up against the Sox, Yankees and Rays every year. Sound fair?

Oh come on. We'll at least give you Bill Hall. Now it's fair.

[bobloblaw]

bobloblaw[/b]]How about this trade, we will give you Halladay for free and we will pick up his salary this year and next. The catch is that after this season you have to trade divisions with us and go up against the Sox, Yankees and Rays every year. Sound fair?

Oh come on. We'll at least give you Bill Hall. Now it's fair.

No way, Hall is a deal breaker. I forgot to add that we have to switch GM's as well

[lcbj68c]

I don't think you want to do that. Cubs and Cardinals fans are quite obnoxious. You'd be begging to go back to the AL east http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[804Sox]

Define a legitimate stud prospect.

 

Brewers trade:

Green, Braddock/Periard/Ordorizzi, Dykstra, Lucroy, and Butler

Receive: Halladay and Swisher

Ummm a top 50, or even 100 prospect in baseball (per BA or whoever . . .)

 

Green, Braddock/Periard/Odorizzi, Dykstra, Lucroy, and Butler do not fit this bill. While many are certainly valuable, every team has prospects like these, and the 2 draft picks Toronto would recieve after holding on to Halladay for another year and a half would likely be "better" than any of these prospects.

 

I like Taylor Green, but his upside seems to be as an above average-good 3B and he is in no way the centerpiece of a trade for the best pitcher in baseball for this years stretch run and all of next year.

 

Same with Braddock. Really nice arm, but his move to the pen limits his upside.

 

Odorizzi and Periard are decent young pitchers with some projection, but are nothing special right now

 

Dykstra doesn't really impress me, nor does the soon-to-be 25yro Butler. Decent results but he's old and the peripherals aren't great

 

Lucroy is another nice piece, particularly if his bat continues to play at AA and above. he does an excellent job controlling the strik zone.

 

In conclusion, Green, Braddock, and Lucroy is a nice start, but your package is missing an elite centerpiece prospect - a top 50-type player who profiles as a possible all-star at his position.

[nate82]

Green, Braddock/Periard/Odorizzi, Dykstra, Lucroy, and Butler do not fit this bill. While many are certainly valuable, every team has prospects like these, and the 2 draft picks Toronto would recieve after holding on to Halladay for another year and a half would likely be "better" than any of these prospects.

 

I like Taylor Green, but his upside seems to be as an above average-good 3B and he is in no way the centerpiece of a trade for the best pitcher in baseball for this years stretch run and all of next year.

 

Same with Braddock. Really nice arm, but his move to the pen limits his upside.

 

Odorizzi and Periard are decent young pitchers with some projection, but are nothing special right now

 

Dykstra doesn't really impress me, nor does the soon-to-be 25yro Butler. Decent results but he's old and the peripherals aren't great

 

Lucroy is another nice piece, particularly if his bat continues to play at AA and above. he does an excellent job controlling the strik zone.

 

In conclusion, Green, Braddock, and Lucroy is a nice start, but your package is missing an elite centerpiece prospect - a top 50-type player who profiles as a possible all-star at his position.

Just because they are not in BA top 50 doesn't mean they are not top prospects. Braddock is a #1 or #2 type starter just because he has been recently moved to the pen means very little. Ordorizzi and Periard are also #1 or #2 type pitchers in low A ball. Braddock will be in the top 50 next year in the BA ranking along with Ordorizzi and Periard. I wouldn't be surprised if Lucroy was also near the top 50. Dykstra is a great prospect and he is only 20 years old and he is only going to get better.

 

You really don't know the Brewers system other than Lawrie, Escobar, and Gamel I don't expect you to know the Brewers system but please don't say they are not something special because they are. Butler is a possible #2 or #3 type starter with the stuff that he has. Butler this year has been doing great and would be the guy that could step into the Jays rotation right now.

 

Periard, Ordorizzi, and Braddock are better than anything the Red Sox currently have in their system if you want to compare. I believe Buchholz like Hughes is nothing but a huge Yankee and Red Sox hype and nothing more.

[chuckiehacks]

Butler this year has been doing great and would be the guy that could step into the Jays rotation right now.

If Butler was able to do this, he'd be in our rotation right now. Toronto is in a position where they don't have to take high-ceiling prospects from the lower levels. You can say "Escobar isn't on the table" all you want, but then you should expect Toronto to counter that Halladay isn't on the table. The fact is we're not the only suitor. Toronto isn't just going to take the best offer we throw out. If we don't offer at least one, if not two, of Gamel, Escobar, Lawrie Toronto will get a better offer.

Personally, I'd propose a package centered around Escobar. If we can get Halladay while keeping Gamel and Lawrie, I don't really care who else is involved.

 

 

[rotoherb]

Just thought that I'd post this here to stoke the fire a bit. Bernie Pleskoff is a former scout who writes a minor league column for us (rotowire.com), but he wrote a blog post about being at the Diamondbacks game last night and talking to some scouts who were there. Apparently word among the scouts at the game is that the Brewers and Angels have shown the most interest in Halladay. Now, this could just be some old scouts shooting the poop with each other, but sometimes where there's smoke, there's fire. If nothing else it's more fodder for disucssion.

 

Blog Post

[nate82]

If Butler was able to do this, he'd be in our rotation right now. Toronto is in a position where they don't have to take high-ceiling prospects from the lower levels. You can say "Escobar isn't on the table" all you want, but then you should expect Toronto to counter that Halladay isn't on the table. The fact is we're not the only suitor. Toronto isn't just going to take the best offer we throw out. If we don't offer at least one, if not two, of Gamel, Escobar, Lawrie Toronto will get a better offer.

Personally, I'd propose a package centered around Escobar. If we can get Halladay while keeping Gamel and Lawrie, I don't really care who else is involved.

 

 

Who else is involved? The Yankees I don't believe they are. The Red Sox nope not in it either. The Cubs nope not in it either. The Twins not something they would do. How about ummm who else? The Cardinals don't have the prospects to spare nor the cash available DeRosa put them up to their limit for this year. Now who does that leave with the available prospects. This is much like last year with Sabathia there just isn't that many teams with the amount of talent the Brewers have that are in on Halladay. Melvin can hold off on Escobar who is off the table. The only other team I can think of that could be in on Halladay are the Rangers and I doubt the Rangers would even give up their best pitching prospect for 1.5 years of Halladay. Definitely not worth the risk of letting go of their best pitching prospect for Halladay which is who the Jays would want in return. Please name the teams you think that are in on Halladay because I don't believe there are that many.

 

I don't know why Butler isn't in our rotation it may have something to do with that we are in contention for a playoff spot and there just isn't any room to have a rookie pitcher who won't be able to go that many innings in the rotation. The Jays could afford having that happen because they are just about out of the playoff picture. Dillard would probably be on the Jays rotation or even the Royals rotation or a lot of other teams that are not really in it.

[dadofandrew]

Does anyone know if Jeffress (or any suspended player) can be traded? If the roto article is true, the Crew is ready to deal anyone outside Escobar, Gamel, and Lawrie.

[dadofandrew]

Braddock will be in the top 50 next year in the BA ranking along with Ordorizzi and Periard. I wouldn't be surprised if Lucroy was also near the top 50.

I don't see this at all. Cain, Salome, and Gindl are all solidly above those guys, never mind Lawrie and Escobar. I don't think the Crew has 9 guys in the top 50...right now, it's just Alcides, and that's how I see next spring as well.

[rotoherb]

Does anyone know if Jeffress (or any suspended player) can be traded? If the roto article is true, the Crew is ready to deal anyone outside Escobar, Gamel, and Lawrie.

Let me just say that these were some scouts talking at a game, which may or may not mean anything. I can attest for sure that what was written was actually said during their conversations, I have no ability to know whether the guys doing the talking had any real knowledge other than being scouts. It may just be a level or two up from four guys at the end of the bar for all I know.

[nate82]

I don't see this at all. Cain, Salome, and Gindl are all solidly above those guys, never mind Lawrie and Escobar. I don't think the Crew has 9 guys in the top 50...right now, it's just Alcides, and that's how I see next spring as well.

Cain is injured this year I expect him to drop down and Salome still has a lot of defensive question marks and Gindl is well Gindl. Lawrie and Escobar will be in the top 50 but Ordorizzi and Braddock have a good chance of cracking the top 50 or very close to the top 50. Lucroy will replace Salome in the rankings in terms of a catching prospect in the Brewers organization. Maybe not a top 50 guy but he should be close and in the top 100 for sure. I could see Salome drop out of the top 50 next year especially if his defense behind the plate does not improve. Salome and Gindl are not solidly above these guys.

[paul253]

Braddock has been nothing short of dominating this season. If he can continue this success as a starter over the next two seasons, I can see him as a top 20 prospect. I just pray the Brewers don't limit his upside by keeping him in the bullpen. By "protecting his arm", they are essentially acting as though they are scared to let him start which is no way to treat a prospect.

[igor67]

You don't want to clear the house of the lower level pitchers, but I'd be hard pressed to reject a trade idea for Halladay on the basis of us including any two pitchers in our system. There's probably a combination or two I'd hesitate on, but the failure rate on pitchers is so high that 1.5 years of Halladay is probably the best we could expect out of 2 pitching prospects. I could definitely see a package around say Lawrie, Ordorizzi, and Braddock giving Toronto a lot of what they are looking for and certainly not crippling us.