Roy Halladay

[Never Outhustled]

I know no one wants to "mortgage the future",

Ya, and I'm waiting for someone to she me what year we're going to be suddenly shorthanded. Those who say we would be mortgaging our future haven't done their homework.

 

 

Great work X...my guess is pulling in Boston is the toughest part of that deal.

Maybe, but Boston did call us in the middle of the season to ask about the availablity of our starting RF. Thats kind of bold in itself. I would think they were ready to make a legit offer. 2 minor leaguers for an average OFcontrolled through 2011 and a nice stopgap SS is a pretty good bargain for them.

[phxMILWfan]

I think that Brewers management has to look at it differently though. Of course the goal is a World Series Championship but they also need people to show up to all the games. Even with out Halladay or any large acquisition the team is exciting enough to make people come out. Going "all in" would be great but then what? Even if the team wins but they lose players to free agency and fans stop showing up, what are they left with? We've made the playoffs once. I think this World Series or bust attitude is not shared by management. I happen to think it wouldn't hurt to just be good and content for a few years and not worry about going for it this year. This team while talented may not be good enough even with Halladay and/or Rolen.

[Hate those Rodents]

For those willing to give up so many two of our top three prospects and then two other top ten prospects.....What is your goal for THIS season? Because I am not sure he alone will get it done. I think I'd try and avoid reaching the high demands for Roy this season. But I might be wrong.

[TheCrew07]

I'm not sure about WS favorites in 2009, but I like our chances in 2010 with your proposal X. As I previously mentioned I have no idea how to project out Yo through the end of September, Parra and the rest of the rotation aside.

[804Sox]

Boston trades:

Michael Bowden to Toronto

Yamaica Navarro to Milwaukee

 

Boston gets:

Cory Hart, Marcos Scaturo

I don't see how this makes any sense for the Sox. Scutaro is no better than Nick Green, Lugo, or Lowriem despite the nice season he's having. There's certianly no reason to give up good value for him. Also, Hart could be had cheaper than Bowden (top 75-level prospect and MLB-ready pitcher) and Navarro (I'm really high on him - see him as a Yunel Escobar-type), and probably isn't of so much interest to the Sox other than as a backup (Bay, Ellsbury, and Drew is a pretty good OF). That's a lot to give up and not much to gain just so another team can get the pitcher that the Sox really want.

[Never Outhustled]

I don't see how this makes any sense for the Sox.

The Sox want Hart to start in RF so Drew can DH more, and Hart would start every day versus LHP for one of Ortiz, Drew, or Ellsbury. Its fact that Epstien called the Brewers asking for Hart. Did you think they were expecting us to give away a former All-Star who had a 892 OPS in 2007 for nothing? Bowden is nice, but he's suplus for the Sox.

[804Sox]

The Sox want Hart to start in RF so Drew can DH more, and Hart would start every day versus LHP for one of Ortiz, Drew, or Ellsbury. Its fact that Epstien called the Brewers asking for Hart. Did you think they were expecting us to give away a former All-Star who had a 892 OPS in 2007 for nothing? Bowden is nice, but he's suplus for the Sox.

I don't doubt that the Sox called about Hart, but I think that if the Brewers demanded Bowden and Navarro it would have been a pretty quick conversation.

 

Yeah, Hart had a really good 2007 and hits a pretty good amount of XBH, but he's got a really long swing, even for a tall player, with a LOT of holes. He's a pretty average outfielder. Also, that inquiry came at a time when Ortiz was essentially a black hole in the lineup. He's still not what he used to be, but he had a 1.062 OPS in June and looks to be turning it around to the point where he will at least not be a liability. Bowden is a top 3 prospect in the Red Sox System - a young 22 yro starter with a track record of success at AAA, with excelent command, and a limited track record of success in the majors.

 

Would the Brewers trade Lawrie for a player of Hart's callibre? No. Of course not. I don't see how some posters here expect such a large return for a player they're disenchanted with and seem to be hoping to get rid of, when they cringe at the thought of giving up a comparable player in a package for Halladay, perhaps the best pitcher in baseball.

[Never Outhustled]

Would the Brewers trade Lawrie for a player of Hart's callibre? No. Of course not.

And we wouldn't trade him for Bowden either. Bowden is a safe prospect, but has a limited ceiling.

 

Top Prospect Carlos Santana was traded last year for Casey Blake. Top prospect Gio Gonzalez and 2 other were traded for Nick Swisher after a down year. Jose Tabata and Jeff Karstens plus 2 others for Xavier Nady and Damarso Marte. I'm starting to think I didn't ask for enough.

[twobrewers]

My biggest complain is that I do not think the Brewers are contenders in 2009 without Rickie Weeks.

 

Next year, the Brewers will likely return every important player. In addition, Hardy will be traded for pitching. We will also have a better hitting catcher.

 

Most importantly, next year all of our prospects will be a year old and potentially more valuable. Our biggest "trade weakness" right now is that we don't have any pitchers. This year, Peralta has pretty limited value as a "A" level pitcher. If his success continues to "AA" he could become a huge trading chip.

[ELCABALLO45]

Not sure if anyone wrote this but Jordan Bastian a MLB guy for the Jay tweeted this..

 

"A source indicated over a dozen teams have asked about Halladay. "Serious" interest: NYY, NYM, STL, MIL, LAD, LAA, BOS"

[804Sox]

Would the Brewers trade Lawrie for a player of Hart's callibre? No. Of course not.

And we wouldn't trade him for Bowden either. Bowden is a safe prospect, but has a limited ceiling.

 

Top Prospect Carlos Santana was traded last year for Casey Blake. Top prospect Gio Gonzalez and 2 other were traded for Nick Swisher after a down year. Jose Tabata and Jeff Karstens plus 2 others for Xavier Nady and Damarso Marte. I'm starting to think I didn't ask for enough.

First off, I agree completely with your assessment of Bowden. However, I think you are looking at those trades with the benefit of hindsight. Gio and Santana went from being solid players with upside to legit elite prospects in the time since they were traded, while Swisher's production fell off, and Nady was injured.

 

neither Santana nor Gonzalez were top 10 prospects in their respective systems before being traded (according to BA) which honestly surprised me, particularly in the case of Gio. In any case, Swisher was not coming off a down year - he had just put up an .835 OPS (with an .860 OPS the previous year) in Oakland with a .375 OBP. He was expected to hit 35 HR in Chicago's small park while playing CF. Not bad . . .

 

Tabata had never (and still hasn't) put his tools together, was looking more and more like he'd never hit for power, and was annoying the Yanks with his reported attitude problems (on an side note, dude has like a 45 yro girlfriend, which is a total waste of his professional athlete status).

 

To tie all of that back together, I guess:

1) I personally don't think Hart is as good as Swisher at the time he was traded to CHI or Nady when he was traded to NY. I've never been a big Casey Blake fan, and I didn't like the trade for LA at the time either.

 

and

 

2) Bowden is regarded more highly as a prospect than Santana or Gio were (although I was pretty high on Gio at the time), and is more of a known quantity than Santana or Tabata were.

 

Point is, Bowden has demonstarted in a small sample size that he can be an average MLB pitcher at worst. That has a lot of value, particularly to a pitching starved team like the Brewers, and, in my opinion more value than Hart brings. When you ask for a top 10 prospect and SS too in Navarro, that makes it even more unbelievable.

 

Honestly as far as Hart vs. Bowden I can see that argument going either way, particularly if you think Hart will rebound to his '07 form, which I don't. I can definitely see the reluctance to add pitchers with limited upside, but when they're cost controlled and major league ready it's different than trading for a low-minors player with a lower cieling. In any case I definitely think that Bowden + Navarro >>> Hart

[Never Outhustled]

2) Bowden is regarded more highly as a prospect than Santana or Gio were (although I was pretty high on Gio at the time), and is more of a known quantity than Santana or Tabata were.

I'll give you Gio, but no way on Santanna. He's now ranked #26, and was traded with 4/5 of the minor league season over. He earned that ranking before the trade.

[clancyphile]

Brewers get:

RHP Roy Halladay

 

Blue Jays get:

OF Brendan Katin

C Angel Salome

RHP Tim Dillard

OF Lee Haydel

 

Toronto needs a corner OF with some pop and a catcher. Salome and Katin can provide those easily, and that should be enough to get Halladay. The guy I really hate to include in the deal is Dillard, who could be a solid starter (hey, he gives you a quality start, even if the BB/K ratio ain't pretty).

 

The 2010 rotation would be Halladay, Gallardo, Bush, Parra, and Suppan/Cody. Not bad. Better than this year's by a fair bit...

 

 

EDIT: Corrected Halladay's first name.

[Team Canada]

Seriously? You think Toronto would take that offer?

Agree with BCR, that wouldn't even get us Sabathia last year.

[BrewCrewRising]

I think in terms of talent value, it's much less than we gave up for Sabathia, whom we only rented for 3 months. I don't think that does it for 1.5 seasons of Halladay.

[wibadgers23]

I would circle around my block nude in broad daylight if that trade went down. I think Toronto is looking for a lot more.

[dadofandrew]

Salome and 3 low level prospects is not getting Halladay.

 

Sadly, add Escobar to that list, it's still not enough, in all likelihood.

[brewdude15]

Who's this "Ray Halladay" fella? Is he good? Must be if we're giving up that much. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[clancyphile]

The package for Sabathia, a better pitcher than Halladay, was LaPorta, Zach Jackson, and eventually Michael Brantley (plus a low-A pitcher).

 

The package offered for Halladay is Salome (who is a clear upgrade at catcher over the Barajas/Chavez combo the Blue Jays presently have), Brendan Katin (who would arguably be an upgrade over Travis Snider in left field), Tim Dillard (again, better than Zach Jackson was), and Lee Haydel (who serves as the A-ball prospect).

 

The Blue Jays got problems this year. Salome might be what they need - and filling a hole at catcher may be something they'd go for.

[BrewerProspectus]

The package for Sabathia, a better pitcher than Halladay, was LaPorta, Zach Jackson, and eventually Michael Brantley (plus a low-A pitcher).

 

The package offered for Halladay is Salome (who is a clear upgrade at catcher over the Barajas/Chavez combo the Blue Jays presently have), Brendan Katin (who would arguably be an upgrade over Travis Snider in left field), Tim Dillard (again, better than Zach Jackson was), and Lee Haydel (who serves as the A-ball prospect).

 

The Blue Jays got problems this year. Salome might be what they need - and filling a hole at catcher may be something they'd go for.

 

no offense, but Brendan Katin couldn't hold Travis Snider's jock in terms of "talent." there's no way this is close to what they'd get for Halladay.

[clancyphile]

The package for Sabathia, a better pitcher than Halladay, was LaPorta, Zach Jackson, and eventually Michael Brantley (plus a low-A pitcher).

 

The package offered for Halladay is Salome (who is a clear upgrade at catcher over the Barajas/Chavez combo the Blue Jays presently have), Brendan Katin (who would arguably be an upgrade over Travis Snider in left field), Tim Dillard (again, better than Zach Jackson was), and Lee Haydel (who serves as the A-ball prospect).

 

The Blue Jays got problems this year. Salome might be what they need - and filling a hole at catcher may be something they'd go for.

 

no offense, but Brendan Katin couldn't hold Travis Snider's jock in terms of "talent." there's no way this is close to what they'd get for Halladay.

Have you seen Snider's OPS? It's .686 as of now (per Baseball-Reference.com).

[southpaw121505]

Halladay is better, and signed longer than CC was. CC was epic down the stretch and it will go down as one of the greatests runs ever when a team needed it the most. But overall, Halladay is better.

 

I'd do a package based around Salome and Lawrie, then maybe one of our OF other than Cain or Gindl and a mid tier pitcher

[BrewerProspectus]

The package for Sabathia, a better pitcher than Halladay, was LaPorta, Zach Jackson, and eventually Michael Brantley (plus a low-A pitcher).

 

The package offered for Halladay is Salome (who is a clear upgrade at catcher over the Barajas/Chavez combo the Blue Jays presently have), Brendan Katin (who would arguably be an upgrade over Travis Snider in left field), Tim Dillard (again, better than Zach Jackson was), and Lee Haydel (who serves as the A-ball prospect).

 

The Blue Jays got problems this year. Salome might be what they need - and filling a hole at catcher may be something they'd go for.

 

no offense, but Brendan Katin couldn't hold Travis Snider's jock in terms of "talent." there's no way this is close to what they'd get for Halladay.

Have you seen Snider's OPS? It's .686 as of now (per Baseball-Reference.com).

 

yes. and I also have seen this.... http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/top-100-prospects/2009/267698.html

[trwi7]

Have you seen Snider's OPS? It's .686 as of now (per Baseball-Reference.com).

Snider is 21, Katin is 26 and Snider has outperformed Katin at every level up until this year.

 

This deal doesn't even come close for Halladay.

[clancyphile]

no offense, but Brendan Katin couldn't hold Travis Snider's jock in terms of "talent." there's no way this is close to what they'd get for Halladay.

Have you seen Snider's OPS? It's .686 as of now (per Baseball-Reference.com).

yes. and I also have seen this.... http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/top-100-prospects/2009/267698.html

Even if Snider rebounds, there is the other corner OF Toronto has... whose OPS is a whopping .734. I mean, does Alexis Rios set anyone on fire?

 

But as I said, the centerpiece is Salome. Filling the Blue Jays' hole at catcher (Salome is still one of the top prospects for the Brewers) would go a long way. I'm sure Salome would easily top the .720 OPS that Barajas is putting up - and Raul Chavez is even WORSE (.663).

 

Salome fills the LaPorta role in the deal. Dillard fills the "Zach Jack" hole - and he's racked up better major-league numbers than Jackson.

 

The top of the Brewers' deal is not exactly Matt LaPorta, but two others in the deal (Katin, Dillard) are probably better than their counterparts in the Sabathia trade, and Lee Haydel is a bit like Michael Brantley.

 

Slightly better package - particularly since the Brewers may have to buy out Halladay's no-trade clause.