Roy Halladay

[Point Beer Is Best]

If I walk into K-mart and offer $20 for a brand new LCD 52' tv, is it really an offer? That's what I'm getting at. No "offer" was ever made to Sabathia and the Brewers didn't intend to make one.

 

That's a pretty far-reaching analogy. It's not like the Brewers offered him a 5 year $50 million deal, they offered up a huge contract. Obviously, the Yankees blew him away with their offer, as they intended to do. But I don't think it was a token offer. I think many fans assumed CC would be gone, so it's not like they were trying to avoid a giant PR nightmare by not even trying (like the "we tried, but what can we do?" approach before trading Carlos Lee). I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one.

 

And off-topic, but K-mart might be making deals like that in the very near future. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[lcbj68c]

Yeah, we'll just have to disagree. All it was in my opinion was avoiding a PR nightmare to the casual fan. Casual fans we are not, (though somebody up there says we are bandwagon here) , so we shouldn't believe everything the PR department puts out. Bottom line, DM has been unable or unwilling to obtain top of the line pitching help via free agency. I don't see that magically changing this off-season. As Peavey pointed out, the off-season isn't the time to do that. Barring a mid-season acquisition 2010 is likely a lost cause. Which is fine...honest. If 2011 is when the team wants to make their next run, all I suggest getting a General Manager that will be able to get the pitching help it needs before that generation of players too passes through their pre-arby years as well?

[bklynbrewcrew]

The same people that are advocating giving up Gamel in a trade for Halladay would have been willing to give up Braun before he showed exactly what kind of player he was. Gamel has a chance to be an absolute star and Im just not willing to give up a great young player like him for Halladay. I just dont think this team is very good, Halladay will not make us a world series contender. We are 2 games above .500 and in a 4 team race. Even with Halladay I dont see us being better than either St Louis or the scrubs and that is why I wouldnt do this deal.

 

I am willing to give Escobar and possibly Lawrie but to me Gamel is an absolute dealbreaker.

[DHonks]

It'd be interesting to see what kind of value Braddock, Peralta, or Anundsen would add to a trade. I'd love to keep Parra.

 

As for Hardy, I like his power, but our whole team is built on power (minus catcher). Therefore, I'm happy to view Escobar's OBP and ignore Hardy's SLG. Of course, we could also attempt to let Hall play SS for a few weeks, hopefully to build some trade value for him in the offseason (in a salary swap).

 

My offer:

Hardy

McGehee

Cody

Peralta

Axford

Cain

PTBNL

 

for:

Halladay

Rolen

 

The Blue Jays would be landing a stud SS. They'd also be landing a promising offensive/defensive 3b under contract control for 5 more years and at a fraction of the cost of Rolen. Lorenzo Cain gives them a promising prospect that scouts tend to love (although I've never been high on). Peralta gives them a stud starting prospect that is several years removed from surgery. Cody gives them a solid back of the rotation prospect that just gets results. Axford gives them a power relief prospect. And the PTBNL would be Josh Butler, another middle of the rotation starting prospect. Yes, I realize that McGehee and Axford are former castoffs. But their values now are rather high. McGehee is showing he's a valuable defender at 2b/3b with offensive potential and an affordable contract.

 

Brewers new lineup:

2b Counsell/Hall/Iribarren

SS Escobar/Counsell/Hall

3b Rolen

 

Gamel has done well for the Brewers, but putting him in AAA helps create depth, especially since Macha has shown no affinity for him.

[derflotr]

They want quality, not quantity. There's one sure thing and no major league pitching in that offer. No way Toronto takes that. Plus the Brewers take on a ton of salary.

[DHonks]

Also, I just realized that they would be combining to add around $26 million in payroll to the club in '10. Take away the Hardy estimated salary of around $6-8 million and Looper's contract being off the books, and you have a net addition of roughly $10-12 million, which is likely doable.

[Oldcity]

I'm pretty shocked by all the people who don't think Halladay makes the Brewers a playoff contender. They have an outside shot at the playoffs without making a move. The Brewers would instantly be the favorite to win the division with Halladay.

 

I also don't see Gamel as an "absolute star." That's what Braun is. Gamel should be a good player--an above average third baseman--but I don't see anything that should lead people to believe he'll be an elite player.

[derflotr]

I didn't mean to come off as harsh or anything, but I just think about supposed asking prices for Halladay and I don't think that one comes close.

[DHonks]

derflotr, I was trying to create a package without Gamel and Escobar. My idea featured some MLB talent (Hardy, McGehee), AAA players on the cusp (Cody, Axford), AA players that some feel are AAA ready (Butler, Cain), and a blue chip starting prospect in Peralta. In trying to rebuild, they could do a lot worse.

[trwi7]

I was trying to create a package without Gamel and Escobar.

It really doesn't make sense to try it. Any offer for Halladay starts with one of those two, likely Escobar.

[Brewcrewin07]

For all those that DON'T want to do this deal.....what happens if Escobar and/or Gamel are busts?? What if Prince or Braun suffer a season ending or perhaps even a career ending injury in two years?? The point is, no one has any idea what the future holds, but we do know what the present holds, and at present, this team IS a playoff team with a stud like Halladay in the rotation. That doesn't even account for having him next year as well. You have to do the deal, i don't care if they want Escobar AND Gamel. I know what I am getting with Halladay, those two I don't. I'd have Gamel and Escobar on the first plane to Toronto if that is what it took to do the deal.

[TheCrew]

I'd rather deal Hardy than Escobar...... on a sidenote, I just looked at Wells contract and I can't believe how much money they threw at him.

 

Have to wonder if the Brewers would be willing to take Wells if the Jays would eat a portion of his salary...... Hart/Hardy/Lawrie for Halladay/Wells (Blue Jays pickup 30% of Wells salary each remaining season) - will wait for someone to destroy that proposal....... just trying to figure how the crew could get Halladay without giving up Gamel or Escobar.

 

Lineup

Escobar

McGehee/Counsell

Braun

Fielder

Wells

Gamel/McGehee/Hall

Cameron

Kendall

Pitcher

[Invader3K]

I can't see why the Jays would want Hardy. They would have him for one and a half years in which they are unlikely to contend. Doesn't make any sense.

[chowyo123]

To be honest, I just don't feel as though this is the Brewers year. They seem to have a lot going against them right now for the second half. Yes, they are still in the race at this point, but it wouldn't surprise me to see them fall off a bit, especially looking at the following:

 

1) Can we expect Gallardo to stay in strong in the second half, especially considering the few innings he pitched last year? Seeing his production lessen would be a large impact in itself. Probably my largest concern.

2) Dave Bush is a question mark right now.

3) Braun's wrist - it may just be a bruise, but losing him for any period would hurt.

4) McGehee/Counsell's knees. I think it's fair to say that McGehee will likely fall of to a certain extent.

 

Then again, you could probably argue that Hardy will play better in the second half, and Parra can't really do much worse than he was before coming back.

 

I'm not saying it wouldn't be fun to see Halladay in a Brewer uniform, but I am seeing more of a falloff in other areas of the team even if we do get him.

[endaround]

The big issue is that Halladay isn't just this year, its next year as well. He would make the Brewers divison favorites. Say you make a trade for Halladay of Escobar, Lawrie and Green. Now that means you'll likely rebuild in 2011, but you'll have the pieces to do it. Halladay and Hardy walk for picks. Hart gets traded, Fielder likely gets traded, Bush gets traded, Weeks may get traded. Now if the Brewers win the World Series in 2010 that likely won't happen, but thats a lot of talent to move and lots of picks to quickly rebuild.

[TheCrew]

Wowza, was just looking at Wells numbers this year.... didn't realize how much his production has dropped off, I'm sure most already have but ignore my previous post.

 

As long as the package doesn't involve both Escobar and Gamel - I'd be a happy camper, I really hope they hang onto Escobar though.

[WisconsinSportsRule]

For all those that DON'T want to do this deal.....what happens if Escobar and/or Gamel are busts?? What if Prince or Braun suffer a season ending or perhaps even a career ending injury in two years?? The point is, no one has any idea what the future holds, but we do know what the present holds, and at present, this team IS a playoff team with a stud like Halladay in the rotation. That doesn't even account for having him next year as well. You have to do the deal, i don't care if they want Escobar AND Gamel. I know what I am getting with Halladay, those two I don't. I'd have Gamel and Escobar on the first plane to Toronto if that is what it took to do the deal.

 

What if Halladay blows out his arm 2 starts in as a Brewer? Then you'd be really happy you dealt both Gamel and Escobar. Plus, we've already seen Gamel's potential this year.

[DonMoney4Mgr]

Gamel has a chance to be a .900 OPS type of hitter while Escobar may never have more than a .750 or so OPS. The comparison to Alfredo Griffin sure doesnt excite me and makes me feel that Gamel is far less expendable and the one untouchable in my mind. I also dont see this team as being one pitcher away from a championship. We need to think of the future which is just as bright potential as the present. We are two games above .500 and have played poor baseball for the better part of the last two months. We are in a 4 horse race for one playoff spot and I just dont think we are a championship level team with or without Halladay.

First of all your comparing a 3B to a SS. You expect a higher OPS from 3B. Secondly, Alfredo Griffin was a career .259/.317 in the minors, .249/.285 in the majors. Escobar is better than that, .292/.331. Plus, I believe if he plays 18 yrs in the majors he will hit more than 24 HR.

 

Further, if you let Escobar go, Hardy has us over a barrell because we have no viable backup. I'm not willing to pay Hardy 8-10M per when signing Fielder should be their priority in 2011. Other than Braun and Fielder, the rest of the position players should be filled out as economically as possible IMO.

[Invader3K]

Brewcrewin07 wrote: What if Halladay blows out his arm 2 starts in as a Brewer? Then you'd be really happy you dealt both Gamel and Escobar. Plus, we've already seen Gamel's potential this year.

 

It's easy to throw out worst case scenarios like that, but it's just not very likely to happen. I would assume the Brewers could get some kind of insurance on Halladay's contract as well. He's been very healthy throughout his career, so to think he might suddenly get hurt is being overly pessimistic. Yes, it could happen...but you can't always run a baseball team on every worst case scenario.

[WisconsinSportsRule]

Brewcrewin07 wrote: What if Halladay blows out his arm 2 starts in as a Brewer? Then you'd be really happy you dealt both Gamel and Escobar. Plus, we've already seen Gamel's potential this year.

 

It's easy to throw out worst case scenarios like that, but it's just not very likely to happen. I would assume the Brewers could get some kind of insurance on Halladay's contract as well. He's been very healthy throughout his career, so to think he might suddenly get hurt is being overly pessimistic. Yes, it could happen...but you can't always run a baseball team on every worst case scenario.

 

That's exactly what I trying to get at. Worst case scenario would be Escobar and Gamel being busts. You can't have that point of view either. Don't forget the miles Halladay has on his arm already. He's been really reliable, but he's 32, IIRC, so he could get injuried. I say the likelihood of Gamel and Escobar being busts is less than Halladay getting hurt. One of them a bust, sure, I'd agree, but not both.

[GB12]

I have come to the conclusion that I want to trade for Hallady with an offer centered around Escobar. We'd be division favorites this year and could make a serious title run next year. 2010 would be the time to make a run. We'll still have Fielder and Hardy then. You get past next year and that's when Fielder could start getting moved. Getting the best pitcher in baseball for a year and a half would be worth dealing Escobar for. If it was only for the remainder of this year I'd say forget it, but for 1.5 seasons I'm all for it. Remember how good Sabathia/Sheets was last year? Well Halladay/Gallardo in 2010 should be even better. Hopefully Parra will be consistently good by then too. Our hitting is not as bad as it has been recently and should only get better. As good as Ryan Braun and Prince Fielder are, they are still young and improving each year. Gamel should be playing everyday next year and should tap into some more of that potential. Rickie Weeks will be back next season. If he could pick it up right where he left off that would be huge. If not Casey McGehee has been doing very nicely and could be in the equation somewhere. Possibly RF if Corey doesn't pick it up? Hardy is having a down year, he could very well come back. Hopefully Jason Kendall won't be playing everyday next year. Whether he's replaced by Salome, Lucroy, Rivera, whoever, it'll be an upgrade offensively there. So pretty much we could improve offensively at every position other than CF next year, and we're already a good offensive team. The one thing we're not going to be able to improve is pitching. We don't minor league ready pitching for next year, and if we go the free agent route we're just going to get another Jeff Suppan. If we don't get someone this year we'd have to next year anyway. Halladay is better than anyone that will be available next season, and he'd be much more valuable to have for a season and half rather than just half a year. I think that even if Halladay was in the last year of his deal he'd still require Gamel or Escobar to get. If we could get him without having to give up both I think we have to do it.

[ELCABALLO45]

This is from a KR blog video...

 

"The Brewers are flying under the radar for Roy Halladay. The Blue Jays love shortstop prospect Alcides Escobar, but the Brew Crew might not have the young pitching needed to complete a deal"

[jjfanec]

This is from a KR blog video...

 

"The Brewers are flying under the radar for Roy Halladay. The Blue Jays love shortstop prospect Alcides Escobar, but the Brew Crew might not have the young pitching needed to complete a deal"

KR also said he was not sure if Halladay would consider coming to the Brewers. Take that for what it is worth because I only believe about 10 percent of the stuff that guy says

[RyDogg66]

I really hope they dont trade Escobar or Gamel. We need both of those guys to be competative into the next 5 years.

[Invader3K]

I really hope they dont trade Escobar or Gamel. We need both of those guys to be competative into the next 5 years.

 

Why do you say that? There aren't other minor league options? Or a trade or free agent signing wouldn't be possible to fill either 3B or SS? I am not crazy about trading either one, but if you can trade one (not both) and get back a pitcher like Roy Halladay that you can make a run with this season and next, I think you have to do it.