Roy Halladay

[lcbj68c]

To the people that don't want a move made for Halladay, I ask one question, Do you trust Doug Melvin? :

 

This isn't even about 2009 to me anymore. Will Halladay put us over the top for 2009? I don't know...maybe, maybe not. This season seemed lost when he made the decision to not upgrade the rotation significantly in the 2009 offseason, (agree or disagree has been overdiscussed already).

 

I want the Halladay move to be made because I want this team to contend in 2010. Doug Melvin has a track record of doing close to nothing when it comes to improving the Brewers during the off-season via free agency or trade. He has a like for Suppans and Loopers and likes to sign guys in free agency the are hasbeens, neverwills, and cheap (minus a free agent closer here and there).

 

Do you trust Doug Melvin to upgrade this rotation via free agency? I don't. Do you trust Doug Melvin to upgrade this rotation via off-season trade? I don't His track record has given me reason to doubt him.

 

Doug Melvin's best moves are made via mid-season trade, both when he has been a buyer (Sabathia) and a seller (Bush, Cordero). If Doug Melvin fails to make a mid-season acquisition for a top flight pitcher, then April of 2010 looks like the same ol, same ol rotation that we have today! 2010 may very well be down the drain if Doug Melvin fails to acquire a pitcher in July of 2009.

[Point Beer Is Best]

Doug Melvin's best moves are made via mid-season trade, both when he has been a buyer (Sabathia) and a seller (Bush, Cordero). If Doug Melvin fails to make a mid-season acquisition for a top flight pitcher, then April of 2010 looks like the same ol, same ol rotation that we have today! 2010 may very well be down the drain if Doug Melvin fails to acquire a pitcher in July of 2009.

Bush was an off-season acquisition (Overbay trade).

 

Edit: Let's not also forget the Sexson trade, antoher off-season deal. I don't think it's fair to generalize that he does nothing in the offseason. It might be more accurate to say he's been afraid of high-priced starting pitching talent during the off-season since the Suppan deal.

[jjfanec]

Not only is this team good enough to win the division with Halladay this year, we would be a very big threat again next year. A whole year of Halladay with Gallardo, a hopefully improving Parra, Suppan and Bush give us a good rotation to work around. With that we still have Braun, Prince, Weeks returning, and depending on who we have to give up to Halladay some other guys like Hardy, Gamel, or Escobar. Trading for Halladay right now may not win the division for us this, although it sure would help, but it would give us a very solid team for next year.

[crossface21]

I told my buddies at the beginning of the year that the Brewers should look at trying to get Halladay. I didn't want anything to do with Peavy. They all said that Toronto wouldn't trade because they were doing so well and I told them to just wait because the Jays wouldn't be able to keep that pace in their division. I started to backoff my position of getting Halladay for a while, and now I'm back on board that I think they Brewers should make a serious play for him and include Hardy in the trade. You'll most likely get him for 1.5 years. And as much as I like Hardy, I think he'll have a strong 2nd half, in the long run with Escobar coming up he'll be much cheaper than Hardy. If the Brewers keep Hardy, it's going to eat up money they could be using to shore up other spots that the team is weak at. If the Brewers aren't in it next year, they can trade Halladay to get top prospects or MLB players, or at least get some high draft picks if he leaves. And who knows, if Halladay likes it here, he may sign to play here longer. He took a hometown discount in Toronto, maybe he'd do the same to play in Milwaukee for a contender.

[naivin]

I also think people are really under selling how good this team is right now. Yes, they've played through a rough patch, but the bats will get hot sooner than later. If Gallardo keeps doing what he's doing, Looper and Suppan remain relatively solid, and Parra pitches similarly to his last start, we'll be fine. We have a great bullpen as well. Halladay would put us over the top.

Problem is, the Cubs can make the very same statement, and they really don't really need Halladay to do it, assuming Dempster and Lilly aren't out for long. Even if we add Halladay, I'm not sure they still don't have the better rotation. If they can fortify that bullpen at all, I'm not sure the Brewers wouldn't remain third in a three horse race. There's no guaraty that either team will score more runs, but if it is reasonable to assume it for one, it is reasonable to assume it for the other.

[lcbj68c]

My bad with the Bush deal. I'm not talking about hitting (Sexson). I'm talking about a high caliber free agent pitcher, not a Suppan or a Looper. Doug Melvin just simply doesn't go after established high caliber pitching in the off-season. If he doesnt give away enough to get Halladay now, I have no doubts that the 2010 rotation (barring injury) will open as Suppan, Gallardo, Bush, Looper, Parra.

[derflotr]

Well yeah, the rotation is great with Halladay if they don't have to deal Parra. I want to wait and see what happens with Dave Bush before anything happens. If he's able to show he's okay before the deadline I don't think you do this trade. Someone said it before - they're not the Yankees. This is a ton of payroll they'd be taking on, especially if Rolen's involved. And though it's unlikely there's still the risk of him demanding a trade.

[Weirdos19]

If Halladay were to accept a trade here, I don't see how he would demand a trade in 4 months. He has to approve the deal now anyway. And if he wants to compete, the Brewers will be contenders with him.

 

Also, I would include Hardy, but he may end up in Boston. I could see Toronto sending him to Boston for Jed Lowrie.

 

I do think this is the year you trade for Halladay, because we have to worry about 2009 and 2010 before we worry about 2011. Also, I think Prince may be dealt for an Ace after 2010.

[PrinceEatMeat]

I think the big question here is if we would consider signing Halladay to an extension once we trade for him. If we had him for 3-4 more years, I think anyone would make the deal hands down. Otherwise, the only question is whether or not it's worth trading the future to compete this year and next year. It's a tough debate, and to be honest it could work out both ways. We could get Halladay, win the division this year and next year, and then rebuild after that. Or, we could go without him, and probably not win this year, and possibly next year, but win for a few years after that, assuming Gamel and Escobar pan out and we get some pitching for Hardy and whoever else down the road. This isn't something that anyone will agree on, because we could end up in a good position either way. It's just a matter of whether people want to compete right now, or wait a few years. I think we can compete no matter what at some point in the next few seasons.

[PrinceEatMeat]

My bad with the Bush deal. I'm not talking about hitting (Sexson). I'm talking about a high caliber free agent pitcher, not a Suppan or a Looper. Doug Melvin just simply doesn't go after established high caliber pitching in the off-season. If he doesnt give away enough to get Halladay now, I have no doubts that the 2010 rotation (barring injury) will open as Suppan, Gallardo, Bush, Looper, Parra.

I don't think this is necessarily true. I think Melvin would likely try to deal Hardy and/or Hart in the offseason for at least a decent starting pitcher. I think Looper will be gone, and whoever we get with a trade will replace him. I think the only guarantees for our rotation next year are Gallardo, Suppan, and Bush. Parra will be in if he can pick it up for the rest of this year. If not. Melvin may have to either keep Looper, or look to acquire 2 starting pitchers instead of 1.

[Point Beer Is Best]

My bad with the Bush deal. I'm not talking about hitting (Sexson). I'm talking about a high caliber free agent pitcher, not a Suppan or a Looper. Doug Melvin just simply doesn't go after established high caliber pitching in the off-season.

During the last two off-seasons Melvin pursued his own high-caliber pitching (Cordero, Sabathia) and made competitive offers. Cordero took a slightly better offer to play for a slightly worse team, and the Yankees obviously threw tons of cash at Sabathia. He also signed Hoffman. But looking back at starting pitching, sure, he's really only pursued Sabathia. But again, I think he's scared to repeat the Suppan mistake, especially while he's still on the books (and I'm not so sure that he wasn't pressured by Attanasio into that signing). And don't forget, while many people saw Suppan for what he is, during that off-season, he was one of the "big" names available and many fans were elated that "big-time" pitcher would sign here.

[lcbj68c]

I don't think this is necessarily true. I think Melvin would likely try to deal Hardy and/or Hart in the offseason for at least a decent starting pitcher. I think Looper will be gone, and whoever we get with a trade will replace him. I think the only guarantees for our rotation next year are Gallardo, Suppan, and Bush. Parra will be in if he can pick it up for the rest of this year. If not. Melvin may have to either keep Looper, or look to acquire 2 starting pitchers instead of 1.

His track record suggests he will do just that...."a decent starting pitcher". Otherwise known as Jeff Suppan or Braden Looper. Seriously guys...another decent starting pitcher will not make the Brewers contenders in 2010. That's all Doug Melvin does is acquire #3's and #4's in the off-season. Teams don't sell in the offseason, they try and get better. The best time to get front line starting pitching is now. A failure to do that and you can just plan on 2011 being a chance at the next winning season, let alone a playoff berth.

[PrinceEatMeat]

I don't think this is necessarily true. I think Melvin would likely try to deal Hardy and/or Hart in the offseason for at least a decent starting pitcher. I think Looper will be gone, and whoever we get with a trade will replace him. I think the only guarantees for our rotation next year are Gallardo, Suppan, and Bush. Parra will be in if he can pick it up for the rest of this year. If not. Melvin may have to either keep Looper, or look to acquire 2 starting pitchers instead of 1.

His track record suggests he will do just that...."a decent starting pitcher". Otherwise known as Jeff Suppan or Braden Looper. Seriously guys...another decent starting pitcher will not make the Brewers contenders in 2010. That's all Doug Melvin does is acquire #3's and #4's in the off-season. Teams don't sell in the offseason, they try and get better. The best time to get front line starting pitching is now. A failure to do that and you can just plan on 2011 being a chance at the next winning season, let alone a playoff berth.

I never said that we would be contenders with that rotation in 2010, I'm just saying that it probably isn't true that we will still have the same rotation we have now. Melvin will at least try to improve the team. I don't think we will compete next year if we have 2 or 3 rookies in the starting lineup either, which we might with Gamel, Escobar, and Cain. Maybe even Salome. If we hold on to these guys they will need a year or two to develop, and by that time we can either trade Fielder for an ace, or trade some other prospects for one. We could choose to try to compete with Halladay now, which is no guarantee, or we could develop our promising prospects, and possibly compete for at least a few years in a row. Those are the options right now. Since making the playoffs with Halladay is no guarantee, I think a lot of people wouldn't mind seeing us give our young guys a chance, and build for the future.

[lcbj68c]

Point Beer Is Best wrote:

During the last two off-seasons Melvin pursued his own high-caliber pitching (Cordero, Sabathia) and made competitive offers. Cordero took a slightly better offer to play for a slightly worse team, and the Yankees obviously threw tons of cash at Sabathia. He also signed Hoffman. But looking back at starting pitching, sure, he's really only pursued Sabathia. But again, I think he's scared to repeat the Suppan mistake, especially while he's still on the books (and I'm not so sure that he wasn't pressured by Attanasio into that signing). And don't forget, while many people saw Suppan for what he is, during that off-season, he was one of the "big" names available and many fans were elated that "big-time" pitcher would sign here.

Let's not be sheep into the offers "thrown" at Sabathia and Cordero. I made the notation that DM does sign high valued closers. Again, a flawed approach in my opinion to after a guy to pitch 35-40 meaningful innings in games you are leading by perhaps as much as 3 runs as opposed to a starter who barring injury will net you 200+ meaningful innings. He was a "big time" free agent pitcher because that's what the Brewers billed him as. He was successful during a short period of time on a big stage. Other than that, the Pirates and the other teams he played for got #3-#4 type stuff that he will always bring. He may very well be hesitant to make a mistake, the difference being the mistake would be in hindsight with Halladay, not with foresight like Suppan. Mistakes in hindsight, I can live with.

[PeaveyFury]

Doug Melvin just simply doesn't go after established high caliber pitching in the off-season.

 

.....which also may be because the established high caliber pitching either doesn't want to come here or is offered absurdly more money by big-market teams (which is pretty much the case each and every off season).

 

Teams don't sell in the offseason, they try and get better. The best time to get front line starting pitching is now.

 

This I absolutely agree with. The best type of pitching they can get in the offseason is a Parra-type- a young-ish, MLB ready pitcher that can be traded for someone like Hardy, with no guarantee that he'll be able to carry the load in the rotation and without a long track record of performance. In other words, a total wildcard.

[ClubLevel]

This team will not make the playoffs with or without RH. The hitting is way too spotty. Don't make the move, Doug. Don't let the bandwagon "fans" influence you. The future is bright for this team, no need to ruin it.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Point Beer Is Best wrote:

During the last two off-seasons Melvin pursued his own high-caliber pitching (Cordero, Sabathia) and made competitive offers. Cordero took a slightly better offer to play for a slightly worse team, and the Yankees obviously threw tons of cash at Sabathia. He also signed Hoffman. But looking back at starting pitching, sure, he's really only pursued Sabathia. But again, I think he's scared to repeat the Suppan mistake, especially while he's still on the books (and I'm not so sure that he wasn't pressured by Attanasio into that signing). And don't forget, while many people saw Suppan for what he is, during that off-season, he was one of the "big" names available and many fans were elated that "big-time" pitcher would sign here.

Let's not be sheep into the offers "thrown" at Sabathia and Cordero. I made the notation that DM does sign high valued closers. Again, a flawed approach in my opinion to after a guy to pitch 35-40 meaningful innings in games you are leading by perhaps as much as 3 runs as opposed to a starter who barring injury will net you 200+ meaningful innings. He was a "big time" free agent pitcher because that's what the Brewers billed him as. He was successful during a short period of time on a big stage. Other than that, the Pirates and the other teams he played for got #3-#4 type stuff that he will always bring. He may very well be hesitant to make a mistake, the difference being the mistake would be in hindsight with Halladay, not with foresight like Suppan. Mistakes in hindsight, I can live with.

If he makes a mistake with Halladay, it costs of the future of the franchise if we give up guys like Escobar and Gamel. Sure, he overpaid Suppan, but he at least has been a decent pitcher for us, and it didn't cost us the future of the franchise to sign him. Signing a guy like CC for that kind of money would've cost us the future for sure.

[lcbj68c]

PrinceEatMeat wrote:

 

I never said that we would be contenders with that rotation in 2010, I'm just saying that it probably isn't true that we will still have the same rotation we have now. Melvin will at least try to improve the team. I don't think we will compete next year if we have 2 or 3 rookies in the starting lineup either, which we might with Gamel, Escobar, and Cain. Maybe even Salome. If we hold on to these guys they will need a year or two to develop, and by that time we can either trade Fielder for an ace, or trade some other prospects for one. We could choose to try to compete with Halladay now, which is no guarantee, or we could develop our promising prospects, and possibly compete for at least a few years in a row. Those are the options right now. Since making the playoffs with Halladay is no guarantee, I think a lot of people wouldn't mind seeing us give our young guys a chance, and build for the future.

I didn't think you were. I have zero faith of Melvin upgrading the rotation for 2010. As to "the future" and "competing", wasn't that supposed to be now? I thought this generation (2008-2010) of players (Hardy, Weeks, Fielder) was supposed to compete for a World Championship, not a winning record. Now, we are talking about the next generation? We are throwing away this generation for the next generation. Please, read this as a question and not a statement with definitive tone. Until the mindset of the GM changes in regards to the rotation and how he acquires it, what difference does it make what generation of young hitters we have? I don't see the need to give up on this generation of our talent yet.

[lcbj68c]

This team will not make the playoffs with or without RH. The hitting is way too spotty. Don't make the move, Doug. Don't let the bandwagon "fans" influence you. The future is bright for this team, no need to ruin it.

Only bandwagon "fans" want to make the move. Now I've heard it all. Stellar 41st post, nice to meet you.

[PrinceEatMeat]

PrinceEatMeat wrote:

 

I never said that we would be contenders with that rotation in 2010, I'm just saying that it probably isn't true that we will still have the same rotation we have now. Melvin will at least try to improve the team. I don't think we will compete next year if we have 2 or 3 rookies in the starting lineup either, which we might with Gamel, Escobar, and Cain. Maybe even Salome. If we hold on to these guys they will need a year or two to develop, and by that time we can either trade Fielder for an ace, or trade some other prospects for one. We could choose to try to compete with Halladay now, which is no guarantee, or we could develop our promising prospects, and possibly compete for at least a few years in a row. Those are the options right now. Since making the playoffs with Halladay is no guarantee, I think a lot of people wouldn't mind seeing us give our young guys a chance, and build for the future.

I didn't think you were. I have zero faith of Melvin upgrading the rotation for 2010. As to "the future" and "competing", wasn't that supposed to be now? I thought this generation (2008-2010) of players (Hardy, Weeks, Fielder) was supposed to compete for a World Championship, not a winning record. Now, we are talking about the next generation? We are throwing away this generation for the next generation. Please, read this as a question and not a statement with definitive tone. Until the mindset of the GM changes in regards to the rotation and how he acquires it, what difference does it make what generation of young hitters we have? I don't see the need to give up on this generation of our talent yet.

We wouldn't be giving up on this generation of talent. It would be combined with the next generation. We'd still have Fielder, Weeks, and Braun, but we'd add in guys like Gamel, Escobar, Cain, and Salome. That could be a very deadly offense right there, and it would likely be better than the offense we have right now. With the way we have drafted for years now, I have no doubts that we won't have highly touted prospects to trade for a Halladay type pitcher two years down the road. By that time, this next generation will be established and be able to combine with proven stars like Braun and Fielder to form a contender. The only reason that I think this is the way to go, is because I'm not convinced that Halladay would put us over the top at least this year. Maybe next year, with a little more added support in the pitching staff, and possibly the offense, we could contend. But, is it worth trading away the future to compete for one year? If we do that, we may be a 70 win team for 2-3 years after that, instead of competing on a regular basis. I know that's not a guarantee either, but I think that we need to give it a chance at this point, only because we are more than a Halladay away from making the playoffs this year. My opinion would be different with a healthy Bush, and a consistent Parra already in the rotation, but we don't have that. And we also have significant holes in our offense compared to last year, with Weeks out, and Hardy and Hart not producing.

[Point Beer Is Best]

Let's not be sheep into the offers "thrown" at Sabathia and Cordero.

 

Obviously, the Yankees were going to get Sabathia at any cost. But they did try to remain competitive and creative (opt-out clauses, etc). But IIRC, the difference for Cordero was 4 years, $44 mil vs. 4 years, $42 mil, without even asking Melvin to match. If that makes me a sheep for thinking that deal was competitive, then "baaaa."

He was a "big time" free agent pitcher because that's what the Brewers billed him as.

 

Not entirely true, as other teams (LAD, NYM, etc) were actively pursuing him. He was the reigning NLCS MVP and World Champion; it wasn't just the Brewers who were drinking the Jeff Suppan kool-aid.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not at all against acquiring Halladay. I'm just taking exception with the generalization that Melvin doesn't try to improve the rotation in the offseason. Sometimes his hands are tied with bad contracts (Suppan, Hall), and the market for mediocre arms is typically inflated. And again, not too many legit #1's ever make the free agent market, and the ones that do are gobbled up by the teams with the deepest pockets. I don't have a problem at all with acquiring top-flight pitching in exchange for our hitting prospects, since we can't seem to consistently develop our own pitching prospects.

[PrinceEatMeat]

This team will not make the playoffs with or without RH. The hitting is way too spotty. Don't make the move, Doug. Don't let the bandwagon "fans" influence you. The future is bright for this team, no need to ruin it.

Only bandwagon "fans" want to make the move. Now I've heard it all. Stellar 41st post, nice to meet you.

 

I don't think that many bandwagon fans even know about our chances to get Halladay, or about any of our prospects like Escobar. Bandwagon fans aren't even informed even to be able to influence anyone on a trade like this. There are plenty of long time Brewer fans that want Roy Halladay in a Brewer uniform, because they know more than anyone what he brings to the table.

[lcbj68c]

We wouldn't be giving up on this generation of talent. It would be combined with the next generation. We'd still have Fielder, Weeks, and Braun, but we'd add in guys like Gamel, Escobar, Cain, and Salome. That could be a very deadly offense right there, and it would likely be better than the offense we have right now. With the way we have drafted for years now, I have no doubts that we won't have highly touted prospects to trade for a Halladay type pitcher two years down the road. By that time, this next generation will be established and be able to combine with proven stars like Braun and Fielder to form a contender. The only reason that I think this is the way to go, is because I'm not convinced that Halladay would put us over the top at least this year. Maybe next year, with a little more added support in the pitching staff, and possibly the offense, we could contend. But, is it worth trading away the future to compete for one year? If we do that, we may be a 70 win team for 2-3 years after that, instead of competing on a regular basis. I know that's not a guarantee either, but I think that we need to give it a chance at this point, only because we are more than a Halladay away from making the playoffs this year. My opinion would be different with a healthy Bush, and a consistent Parra already in the rotation, but we don't have that. And we also have significant holes in our offense compared to last year, with Weeks out, and Hardy and Hart not producing.

I absolutely agree. I think the focus should be 2010 and 2011.

I have no doubts that we won't have highly touted prospects to trade for a Halladay type pitcher two years down the road.

Not with Doug Melvin. I don't trust he has this ability. It's the best idea, I just don't think he'd do it. He failed to do so during this generation crop, what'll change with the next generation?

[lcbj68c]

Obviously, the Yankees were going to get Sabathia at any cost. But they did try to remain competitive and creative (opt-out clauses, etc). But IIRC, the difference for Cordero was 4 years, $44 mil vs. 4 years, $42 mil, without even asking Melvin to match. If that makes me a sheep for thinking that deal was competitive, then "baaaa."

If I walk into K-mart and offer $20 for a brand new LCD 52' tv, is it really an offer? That's what I'm getting at. No "offer" was ever made to Sabathia and the Brewers didn't intend to make one.

[PrimeTime955]

If I walk into K-mart and offer $20 for a brand new LCD 52' tv, is it really an offer? That's what I'm getting at. No "offer" was ever made to Sabathia and the Brewers didn't intend to make one.

Yeah...comparing a $20 offer at K-Mart to a $100,000,000 that we made, weather or not you want to believe it, is almost comparable. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/ohwell.gif