Roy Halladay

[bklynbrewcrew]

I definitely didnt know about Lawrie possibly having a bad attitude and if thats true maybe he should be included. In the case of Gamel I see him being a .900 OPS type of hitter who I think can stay at third base and become quite good there.

 

The idea that I get is that Melvin feels that Escobar is THE untouchable. Escobar is the guy that Melvin is always talking about glowingly, much more so than Gamel. I really hope Im wrong because I see Gamel as the far better player for us but I think Melvin will offer him in a Halladay deal before he offers Escobar.

 

Its my opinion that this team needs to always think about tomorrow as well as today and giving up 4 or 5 elite prospects for a year and a half of an elite pitcher is just not something that serves the future of this organization well. I just dont see this team as a World Series contender with or without Halladay and would hate to mortgage the future for him. This team has too many holes and Halladay cant fill them all.

[barbados73]

My concern is that lets say the Brewers do pull off a Halladay deal, and then at the end of the season Halladay demands a trade(as he has the right to do by being traded in the middle of a multi year deal). The Brewers would be hoping to recover what they gave up for Halladay being that they have lost all leverage with Halladay's trade demand. I guess I would prefer going the more conservative approach and trade for more of a gamble SP and see if it works out. The Brewers wouldn't have to give up their top prospects, and it may work out positively. I just don't see the Brewers being only 1 or 2 players away, especially with the way the hitters(outside of Braun and Fielder) are hitting.

[KCBrewerfan34]

This is a trade the Brewers need to make, getting Rolen & Halladay gives us a window for 2009 & 2010 to compete for a WS, don't worry about 2011 for god sakes!!!

 

Gamel

Parra

Lawrie

2 prospects

 

FOR

 

Halladay

Rolen

[PeaveyFury]

Considering that in Tom's blog Melvin went from Escobar and Gamel being 'completely untouchable' to 'it'd be really hard to deal them', a deal for Halladay seems a heck of a lot more possible today than it did a week ago.

[naivin]

Considering that in Tom's blog Melvin went from Escobar and Gamel being 'completely untouchable' to 'it'd be really hard to deal them', a deal for Halladay seems a heck of a lot more possible today than it did a week ago.

Saying that any player/prospect is untouchable is stupid anyway. There is no such thing as untouchable if the right deal comes along. There is not a player or prospect alive today that is truly untouchable on any team. The goal is to make your team better, short- and long-term, and if you can accomplish that you do it, regardless of who is involved.

[naivin]

If you include Parra in the deal, I'm not sure you are accomplishing much. It is beginning to look as if Bush and Parra could combine to equal one SP the remainder of this year. That leaves you with Halladay, Gallardo, Looper, Suppan, Bush/Burns. Not sure that gets it done. If Parra and/or Bush cannot pitch effectively, we end up with the same situation we had at the end of last year where we basically had two SP that gave the Brewers a chance to win.

[Never Outhustled]

I just don't see the Brewers being only 1 or 2 players away, especially with the way the hitters(outside of Braun and Fielder) are hitting.

We're 4th in Runs Scored, and Colrado's park effects always puts them in the top 3, so we're a good offense. We could be great with bigger contributions from Hardy and Gamel in the 2nd half.

[Brewcrewin07]

Whatever it takes to get Halladay(short of Prince, Braun or Yo), you do it and don't even think twice about it. I for one, tasted success last year with the Brewers and I want more. You worry about next year and future years, when they get here.

[endaround]

The Brewers can't trade Parra for Halladay and in no way for Hallday and Rolen. They will need a cheap pitcher if they get Halladay.

 

I thought that if traded in the middle of a multiyear it was the following May you had to decide and became a FA at the end of that season. Not sure where I got that from but the details I remember were pretty specific so I don't know. Anyone know the relevant part of the labor agreement?

[logan82]

Melvin mentioned that in the blog. TH quoted him directly.

"Players traded in the middle of a multi-year contract can ask to be traded (again)," said Melvin. "That's something a lot of people don't know. If he goes to a certain city and doesn't like it, he can demand a trade.

"If that team doesn't trade him, he has the choice of being a free agent. That hasn't happened very often but you don't know what the player might do."

[endaround]

No I know, but I thought if a player had less than 2 years remaining it ends up being moot since they need to give notice by May of the year they want to leave as a FA.

[naivin]

Well, If tey are gonna do it, I suggest they get it over with, much like they did with CC. He will make 3 more starts between now and the deadline, I would much prefer he make them for the Brewers instead of Toronto. There's value in that too. If the Brewers are planning to make the playoffs, it is highly unlikley they are gonna do so by more than a game or two.

[logan82]

A player with 5 years of service who has been traded in the middle of a multi-year contract may, during the off-season, require his new team to either trade him or let him become a free agent. If the player is eventually traded, he's not eligible to demand a trade again under the current contract and loses free agency rights for 3 years. However, the 2007-11 CBA eliminated this right for players signing multi-year contracts under the new CBA. Players signed to multi-year deals before the effective date of the 2007-11 CBA retain the right to demand a trade if traded during the life of their current contracts.

 

This is what I found with a quick search. Looks like Halladay's current contract is 2008-2011, but he signed the extension in 3/06.

[dadofandrew]

Escobar is still young, and sure looks good at the plate. He may never have a .375 OBP, but he might have a .360 one, and with his defense, that's superb. I would not dream of dealing him, and would hate to deal Gamel either, but as a 3B who might end up at a spot less important on the defensive spectrum, I'd much rather lose him.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Escobar is still young, and sure looks good at the plate. He may never have a .375 OBP, but he might have a .360 one, and with his defense, that's superb. I would not dream of dealing him, and would hate to deal Gamel either, but as a 3B who might end up at a spot less important on the defensive spectrum, I'd much rather lose him.

Gamel has a chance to be a .900 OPS type of hitter while Escobar may never have more than a .750 or so OPS. The comparison to Alfredo Griffin sure doesnt excite me and makes me feel that Gamel is far less expendable and the one untouchable in my mind. I also dont see this team as being one pitcher away from a championship. We need to think of the future which is just as bright potential as the present. We are two games above .500 and have played poor baseball for the better part of the last two months. We are in a 4 horse race for one playoff spot and I just dont think we are a championship level team with or without Halladay.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Escobar is still young, and sure looks good at the plate. He may never have a .375 OBP, but he might have a .360 one, and with his defense, that's superb. I would not dream of dealing him, and would hate to deal Gamel either, but as a 3B who might end up at a spot less important on the defensive spectrum, I'd much rather lose him.

I completely agree with this. I'd be very upset if Melvin gave up on Escobar before we can even see what he can do. Although, we could say the same for Gamel. He still hasn't been given a chance to play everyday, and I'd really like to keep him and see what he can do everyday at 3b next year. However, if I had to choose one to trade, I'd definitely choose Gamel. Shortstops like Escobar don't come along very often. At least we have McGehee at 3b, and Green coming up behind him. We don't have other options at SS other than Hardy, and he isn't even looking like a long-term option anymore.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Escobar is still young, and sure looks good at the plate. He may never have a .375 OBP, but he might have a .360 one, and with his defense, that's superb. I would not dream of dealing him, and would hate to deal Gamel either, but as a 3B who might end up at a spot less important on the defensive spectrum, I'd much rather lose him.

Gamel has a chance to be a .900 OPS type of hitter while Escobar may never have more than a .750 or so OPS. The comparison to Alfredo Griffin sure doesnt excite me and makes me feel that Gamel is far less expendable and the one untouchable in my mind. I also dont see this team as being one pitcher away from a championship. We need to think of the future which is just as bright potential as the present. We are two games above .500 and have played poor baseball for the better part of the last two months. We are in a 4 horse race for one playoff spot and I just dont think we are a championship level team with or without Halladay.

I agree with the fact that Halladay won't put us over the top. That's why I wouldn't even consider this trade right now. Maybe if Bush was healthy and in normal form, and Parra was consistently good, then I would do it. But right now, that isn't even close to the case. We need more than Halladay to get where we want to be.

[The Heartbreak Yid]

I can pretty much guarantee that Ricciardi asks for Gamel, Escobar, and probably Parra. The situation as I understand is that its not so much a salary dump as hes just trying to get all the top prospects that he can.

[bamberger]

I've come to the conclusion that the team is not good enough presently to sacrifice either Gamel or Escobar for Halladay. Factors are his contract, both young players look to be special, and the Crew is a maddeningly inconsistent hitting team that often will let down good pitching performances.

Escobar has great defense and speed. He would replace Hardy, who is only a good defensive SS with some power, but no speed and is prone to sub-par batting averages. Gamel could be a .300 hitter with average power whose left-hand bat would balance the lineup with a much needed higher OPS.

Trading Hart or Hardy for some pitching seems to be the best move right now.

[Dmiles23]

I'm on the fence about a Halladay trade.

 

On one hand:

 

The Brewers need pitching desperately... and not only for this year, but for next year as well. There is no way they can sign a top of the rotation guy; so to acquire a top of the rotation guy, they need to give up something. And in my opinion, Halladay would REALLY have to hate Milwaukee not to stay because if the Brewers trade for him, he's going to get the Sabathia treatment the rest of the year (sell outs every time he pitches, huge ovations, just lots of love from the fan base). To add to that, he'll be on a competitive team. So if you add Halladay, we will probably have a very similar team next year, starting players and rotation anyways.

 

So you go with that for the rest of this year and next... and then, in my opinion, the end of the road with Fielder comes. Unless he's willing to sign a deal for another couple years, the Brewers HAVE to trade him so they don't just get 2 picks for him. So that will be an opportunity for the team to get some promising prospects at needed positions.

 

On the other hand:

 

Trading top prospects is ALWAYS a huge risk for the Brewers. If we trade for Halladay today and he blows out his arm and needs Tommy John tomorrow, the team is absolutely screwed. It gave up it's future for the present, and now the present is gone. And also the obvious, it gave up cheap players for 1.5 years.

 

 

I guess at this point, I'd be leaning towards making the trade. As frustrated with Hardy as I am, I don't consider him a .220 hitter and have to think he's going to break out of it. And I think Hart has the potential to raise his average 15-20 points. Thus, I believe our offense will be fine, and improve a bit... but will still be frustrating at times. We play St. Louis 9 times in the last month, so anything is possible. And it would sure help our chances if we could throw Gallardo and Halladay against them 5-6 times in the last month.

[naivin]

I see alot of people saying they want to improve the pitching but aren't willing to give up any good or potentially good position players in order to do so...Until Doug Melvin and the Brewers can demonstrate an ability to draft and develop pitchers as well as they can position players, it isn't going to happen. We want the best pitcher available, but aren't willing to give up our best prospects to get him? How's that work?

 

If you think Halladya makes you a legitimate WS contender, Mat Gamel be damned, make the move. If not, put an eye on improving the pitching in offseason. Or, go the Doug Davis route and hope for the best. Fact is a couple years from now, Gamel and Escobar do nothing for you if you don't have the pitching tsaff to compete.

 

All of that said, I would not go get Hallady because I don't think it does enough. Between, Hardy, Hart, Kendall, Parra and Bush, and the lack of a lead off hitter, not to mention Bill Hall's contract, there is just too much ground to make up.

[Dmiles23]

Trading Hart or Hardy for some pitching seems to be the best move right now.

I just don't understand this sentiment. In the offseason... maybe. But right now? If Hart is traded, who replaces him in right? We have Gerut and Catalanotto as options. And if Hardy is traded, who in the world is going to play short? Macha seems to refuse to play 2 rookies on the infield at the same time (Gamel and McGehee), so he is definitely not going to be playing 3!

[Invader3K]

Plus the fact that I doubt Hart would get the Brewers that much right now. Hardy would probably bring a bit more, but there aren't that many teams desperately seeking a SS they will have for just a year and a half.

 

I think the move has to get made. It would help with this year and next season. Which brings up another point...do people expect the Brewers to be able to get a top flight starter via trade or free agency this off season? Or do they really think Gallardo alone can carry the rotation the rest of this season and next? Most contenders have two great pitchers at the top of their rotation. Currently the Brewers only have Gallardo, which is why they need Halladay or someone of similar caliber. Expecting a 23 year old (no matter how good he is) to carry your team into the playoffs is foolish.

[Point Beer Is Best]

A player with 5 years of service who has been traded in the middle of a multi-year contract may, during the off-season, require his new team to either trade him or let him become a free agent. If the player is eventually traded, he's not eligible to demand a trade again under the current contract and loses free agency rights for 3 years. However, the 2007-11 CBA eliminated this right for players signing multi-year contracts under the new CBA. Players signed to multi-year deals before the effective date of the 2007-11 CBA retain the right to demand a trade if traded during the life of their current contracts.

 

This is what I found with a quick search. Looks like Halladay's current contract is 2008-2011, but he signed the extension in 3/06.

If what I bolded there is true, if he demands a trade after a hypothetical trade to Milwaukee, they ought to be able to get some value for him since they would essentially be trading three years of Halladay vs. just one. It would be a risky move on his part. Sure, he might become a free agent one year sooner, but it is more likely that he would be traded and become a free agent two years later than his original contract states.

 

Looking back at the Sabathia deal, I think there may be a way to hedge this. IIRC, there was a list of the PTBNL's, and if the Brewers made the playoffs, Cleveland could have their pick; if not, the Brewers made the selection. Maybe they would do something similar - a multi-tier PTBNL list, where the Brewers pick the player if Halladay does not pitch for Milwaukee in 2010, and Toronto makes the pick if he does.

 

Again, I think it would be big risk on his part to demand a trade during the offseason, but we might be able to protect ourselves somewhat.

[Invader3K]

Well, I don't think it's really that big a deal. With his no trade clause, if he approves a trade to Milwaukee, I doubt he is going to turn around and demand a trade three or four months from now, with only one year left on his current contract. He wants to win, and Milwaukee is still a contender. That may work in the the Brewers favor as far as getting him to waive his NTC.

 

I also think people are really under selling how good this team is right now. Yes, they've played through a rough patch, but the bats will get hot sooner than later. If Gallardo keeps doing what he's doing, Looper and Suppan remain relatively solid, and Parra pitches similarly to his last start, we'll be fine. We have a great bullpen as well. Halladay would put us over the top.