Brewers talking with Jeff Suppan

[BrewCityUnit]

That Cardinal offer is very interesting.

 

Do we even want a guy for 11 million a year if the Cardinals won't even offer 7 million a year for?

[rluzinski]

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Our new owner Mr a is already getting a bad rap of putting the bottom line and profits ahead of winning.

 

 

Come on Reed. That is a pretty outlandish statement.

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Masking your opinion as some kind of growing general concensious is kind of silly, IMO. I'm sure there are people who agree with you but they appear to be in a minority, ATM. I also suspect that most of them would automatically assume the above, unless the Brewers started spending $80+ mil/year.

 

Hell, we all knew Mark A. wasn't going to bankrupt himself to get a championship to begin with. Anyone who thought he was going to put winning in front of profits was kidding themselves. Most owners are simply trying to make money. That's why it's called professional sports.

[Invader3K]

We should base a free agency signing on what's best for the Brewers, not what the Cardinals are or aren't willing to do. You have to overpay for decent starting pitching. It sucks, but we've all been through this before.

 

As far as fans being upset, I don't think anyone is mad at Attanasio. He's spent more money than the Seligs ever did. That said, it's hard to feel good when your team is looking at a 25th year without a playoff appearance, and your team are basically dismissed as a AAAA feeder team.

[BREWCREW5]

We arent going to have much to talk about around here when Suppan signs somewhere else. I beginning to think when we strike out on Suppan that we wont be getting much for Jenkins or Mench either.

[brewmann04]

the most likely scene will Be Suppan going somewher else than Milwaukee and having a platoon of Jenkins and Mench in RF with Hall In CF.

don"t fear we are still looking to the future and the new TV deal.

[Big Reed]

I don't think my statement about Mr A was that outlandish. there are several well known forums that discuss the brewers(JSONLIne,realgm,espn). and there are posters here that also post on those and other brewer related forums. This forum is by far the most positive about the brewers' future and Mr A. it's also the most informative and factual. However, there are many other forums where posters are not as generous in their feelings and remarks towards MR A and are starting to call him the second coming of the Seligs with his eye first on profit. A lot of those posters have been banned from posting at this site. So one could assume that the views expressed on this site do not represent the most accurate total viewpoints of the casual and diehard brewer fan. Don't kill me. I'm just the messenger. I'm just telling you that on the other forums, Mr A is getting a bad rap for his frugality and for being a profit first oriented guy.

 

I will grant, Mr A has increased the brewers' payroll dollars twofold. but so has almost every other baseball owner. The yankees payroll in 2000 was only $92 million. the white sox payroll in 2000 was only $31 million. In 2006, it was $102 million after allowing frank thomas and his lofty contract to look elsewhere. The brewers payroll for the past 5 years was ranked 26th in 2006; 29th in 2005; 32nd in 2004 when the team was up for sale; 30th in 2003; 23rd in 2002; and 25th in 2001 and 2000. To me when you look at payroll rankings rather than just dollar figures, it appears that Mr A has essentually brought the brewers back to about the same level of spending as the Seligs were at before they placed the team up for sale. To me, Mr A with a new Miller Park is not improving the Brewers' payroll to any higher ranking among his ownership peers than where the Seligs were. Yes, he's spending more money, but the rankings of spending are about the same.

 

Historical facts would reveal team payrolls are usually at their lowest prior to a sale, and their increase rate is usually at its highest after a sale or after winning a championship. I don't believe it's a realistic statement to say Mr A has doubled the payroll without also including some qualifiers i.e. when he bought the team, the Seligs had purposely lowered the payroll to consumate the deal. And Mr A is also receiving a lot more revenue sharing money now than what was received at the time he bought the team. Has Mr A's payroll increase equaled the same rate that MLB has? it's one thing to flat out state Mr A has doubled the payroll. It's another thing to provide comparisons to what other owners have done in the same time period. Stats can be used both ways. It's called spin and slant. I've noticed Geico and Progressive never try to compare their rates to USAA. Their rates aren't even close. that's called misinformation by not including all of the facts. I believe the same applies here. is the glass half empty or half full?

 

if the brewers can't afford to sign Suppan at the going market rate, what type of a message does that bring home to the players? I'm a firm believer FA contracts are not going to go back down next year or any subsequent year. .

 

if the brewers have to worry what signing Suppan will do to their remaining salary structure and what will happen 3 years from now when Sheets, Weeks and Fielder all want big money extensions, then I have to ask are they actually any better off now than they were under Selig's ownership? I'm extremely concerned that three years from now the brewers will have to make a tough decision and keep only two of Sheets, Weeks, Capuano and Fielder. a new stadium and new ownership were supposed to provide for all our needs. yet we still find ourselves making decisions primarily based on financial limitations rather than on talent levels.

 

I realize this is sounding like a broken record. but if we can't afford to sign a Suppan, the message it's sending me is that we can't afford to sign anybody. not now and not in the future. melvin can only work the phones so long. After a while I'm sure some other team is going to offer him a contract he can't refuse, and a budget that will allow him to make the type of deals he is accomstomed to making. I feel Melvin is probably the best GM for a low payroll, small market team. but he can only do so much with the budget he receives to work with.

 

now go out and sign Suppan!! and make me happy.

[BREWCREW5]

I think instead of platooning Mench and Jenkins, we start Jenks in right, Hart in Left and Hall in center. Trade Mench for a decent reliever and a pitching prospect. Then pray that Jenkins can at least hit .250 against left handers. Jenkins has a lot to prove this upcoming season and it wouldnt suprise me if he has a much better 07 than 06.

[MontanaprepStar]

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Mr A is getting a bad rap for his frugality and for being a profit first oriented guy.

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He Damn well better be a "profit" first guy. We live in a free market economy and that's how things work. If he isn't a "profit" guy he won't be in business very long. What do you want him to do......sign a bunch of overpriced free agents, go .500 for 3 consecutive years and have the team move to Oklahoma? We are not the Yankees or Sox.

[theavrock]

I wouldn't hold your breath praying on that. Jenks avg against lefties over the past three years? .211

[Invader3K]

Big Reed summed up my feelings pretty well. Mark Attanasio basically bought a broken team. A good analogy would be if you bought yourself an old beater of a car, with a new paint job on it...the thing still needs a new engine. Mark Attanasio has not bought that engine yet. He has kept it running and paid for the gasoline as prices have gone up, but we don't have that new engine to take us over the big humps in the road.

[bando1234]

Just my opinion here but if Suppan came in to be the ace of the staff I could see a four year deal for 45 million. Suppan is on the wrong side of thirty & would be 3rd to 4th best pitcher on this staff. Would we not be better giving a Steve Trachsel/John Thompson(4th or 5th starter) type a two year deal to bridge a gap until ZJ or Yo are ready. Saving some of this money for a better free agent class or at very worst to extend the contract of our own pitchers.

[TooLiveBrew]

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I don't see how anyone could feel Sheets might be jealous. If anything, it would show him this team is trying to help him win, and take some pressure off of him to boot.

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Agreed, Invader3K. Ben Sheets is a grown man. Plus, it's Benny. No 'feelings' are going to be involved here. Much more important is continuing to build a winner, and show our top players that we're committed to continual improvement. Signing Suppan would be another step in that direction, and would not be a big enough signing, dollars or years-wise, to handcuff the franchise when it comes time to re-sign the big guys we want to retain.

 

Capuano & Hall are the only two players we' have to worry about being done with arbitration by the end of a 4-yr deal for Soup. Sheets is a FA after 2008, which would still have Cap & Hall under arbitration deals. Attanasio & Co. have shown a keen ability to gradually yet steadily increase income & player money, and I trust them to have the dollars in place to re-sign enough core guys to continue success.

 

(I can admit that perhaps Sheets is not in the future for the Crew, Suppan or not. But, as I've said many times before (with the caveat that I don't want to lose Ben!), our trade return for him, if we are forced to deal, would be incredible - possibly exceeding Sheets's value to the team due to sheer number of quality players/prospects possible in return)

[DHonks]

Ben has said that contracts are not at all based on expected future performance. He's a big believer in the market and PAST performance being the reasons that players are paid what they are. So hopefully he understands that there's a premium being paid for durability.

[TooLiveBrew]

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This forum is by far the most positive about the brewers' future and Mr A. it's also the most informative and factual. However, there are many other forums where posters are not as generous in their feelings and remarks towards MR A and are starting to call him the second coming of the Seligs with his eye first on profit. A lot of those posters have been banned from posting at this site. So one could assume that the views expressed on this site do not represent the most accurate total viewpoints of the casual and diehard brewer fan.

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Reed, I think you make the perfect counter-argument to the notion that this forum is not representing the Brewer fan base. I, for one, tend to base my opinions on facts and reality, as opposed to some cockamamie notion that a multi-millionaire shoudn't continue to manage his money well, and that Attanasio is somehow not invested in the best interest of this club.

 

Exactly the opposite -- his biggest concern is the performance and well-being of the Brewers. Milwaukee got burned for far too long by owners who actually were concerned with their own profit, so much so that they shyed away from taking (even calculated) risks. Those of us (I think you're included here, Reed - I know you're 'just the messenger') who follow the team closer than just whining over the trade of Carlos Lee, and not winning 85+ games, recognize that for the first time in over a decade, the ship is pointed in the right direction.

 

That's a big first step. Although there is clearly much more work to be done, on & off the field, we know now for a fact that Attanasio has figured out a way to make the Brewers competitive and profitable at the same time. Seeing that for 2 full years in a row, I see no reason to doubt modest, yet positive growth for the franchise in the near future.

[gbpacker40]

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Although there is clearly much more work to be done, on & off the field, we know now for a fact that Attanasio has figured out a way to make the Brewers competitive and profitable at the same time. Seeing that for 2 full years in a row, I see no reason to doubt modest, yet positive growth for the franchise in the near future.

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Not trying to nitpick here, but how can you say your looking at the Brewers in a more reality based view than others and then go on to say we have been competitive and profitable two years in a row. We have been profiting for soem time now, well before Attanasio and competitive, I beg to differ as would most of other people here. Not trying to pick on you, but that post came across as very snide and very rude to I think the majority of posters here. Maybe I am reading it wrong and if so I am sorry. Nothing personal. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[TooLiveBrew]

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Not trying to pick on you, but that post came across as very snide and very rude to I think the majority of posters here.

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Snide & rude? Wow, I really don't know how. I just meant to point out the opposing view that people with "gut feelings" on Mark A., without any real truth to back them up, are doing a disservice to themselves and others.

 

Packer40, please tell me how the quote you chose from my post is "rude" to "a majority of posters here." I really don't know. I just wanted to praise Mark A.'s short, yet successful tenure. He has turned ownership and improvement of the Brewers into a proactive job, as opposed to just focusing on making a little money. I love that he recognizes that a good investment into gradually building a perenially strong team (which we're clearly still on the road to doing) is good for owner(s), fans, and employees alike. I love that a plan to improve is in place not just for the next season (a la Selig & the Tribune Co. - John Vander Wal, anyone?), but for many years to come.

 

I guess, re-reading my post, I can see where the condescension may be found, but trust me, it wasn't intended:

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Those of us (I think you're included here, Reed - I know you're 'just the messenger') who follow the team closer than just whining over the trade of Carlos Lee, and not winning 85+ games, recognize that for the first time in over a decade, the ship is pointed in the right direction.

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IMO, that probably applies to 99% of posters I see regularly. That's the main reason this site is sweeeeeeet - people care to go beyond the surface of issues (see a 19-page thread on a possible FA that hasn't even been tendered an offer by Melvin yet http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif )

 

As far as the "profit" notion, I think it is very fair to assert that the profit is actually being utilized for improvement of the team now ("competitive & profitable at the same time"), much moreso than under the Selig regime. I didn't think that was a controversial notion on this site. It appears that I didn't make myself clear enough, but man - I'm really shocked that anyone would be offended at what I wrote.

[Invader3K]

TooLiveBrew, you make some fair points, but what Mark Attanasio says in public and what actually happens on the field are two different things. Maybe his tenure so far has been successful from a profit standpoint, but not an on-the-field standpoint. So far the best thing we've gotten is an 81-81 record. Not much to brag about.

[TooLiveBrew]

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Maybe his tenure so far has been successful from a profit standpoint, but not an on-the-field standpoint. So far the best thing we've gotten is an 81-81 record. Not much to brag about.

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Invader3K, after 106 losses in 2002, and 94 losses in both 2003 & '04, I do indeed brag about the drastic turn-around of the franchise. I think you're drastically wrong to say that there hasn't been an on-the-field improvement. And Mark A., along with great personell like Doug Melvin, deserve the lion's share of the credit. This is why I so passionately stick up for Attanasio. For some reason, he just doesn't get the credit he deserves.

 

You don't turn a small-market 100-loss team into a divison title winner in 2, or even 3 years (don't bring me Detroit, they're hardly small-market). At least not into a consistent contender. What we have in Milwaukee is a very unique situation:

 

We have an excellent Front Office. Player evaluations, drafting, and trading have been fantastic, across the board, since Melvin's arrival (and yes, I know that was in 2003, then still under Selig-ness). This has lead to a dearth of young, affordable talent.

 

But we also have a limited amount to spend on player salaries. Which leads me to the next point - Attanasio's monetary contributions in his first two seasons (three if you consider that he's again upping payroll, in large part thanks to fans like us http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif ). This is the difference-maker. Ownership has a plan in place to continue to grow & expand our income. The reason I trust them is that, so far, they've been correct (& accurate).

 

While he hasn't jumped the payroll up to the (unaffordable) $90-100 million range, Attanasio has made planning for payroll expansion a top priority each of his first three years. I know I was in my teens during the 1990s, but come on -- the Seligs never even came close to this.

 

These gradual, incremental increases are the backbone for any sustained competitiveness in Milwaukee, and so far, they're working. It's the Twins & A's that Brewer fans need to examine - that's the way this franchise is being modeled, as it cannot sustain success any other way.

 

The big, free-spending teams have it easier. Anyone would just love to go add the FA(s) of their choice each offseason, but I prefer the developmental route. I think we're going to be having a lot of fun as Brewers fans in the next 4+ years, and maybe by then more will recognize that Attanasio's arrival & the team's gradual but steady turnaround were not coincidences.

[sbrylski]

TooLiveBrew, excellent post. I was about to make the same points but you said it all.

[TooLiveBrew]

To possibly wear out my welcome on this thread, an anecdote -

 

In 1983, Sandy Alderson took over as GM of the Oakland A's. The team had gone 68-94 in 1982, and needed to start over. For the next 5 seasons ('83-'87), the team had a combined .475 Winning %, with the best effort an 81-81 1987 campaign. From 1988 on, however, Alderson's hard work began to pay off -- including signing Mgr. Tony LaRussa prior to the '87 season.

 

As their young stars began to truly arrive (McGwire, Canseco, etc.), the team skyrocketed -

 

1988: 104-58, AL Champs

1989: 99-63, WS Champs

1990: 103-59, AL Champs

 

 

Alderson brought the A's out of decline that followed their 1972-73-74 WS 3-peat. The legendary Charlie Finley was the architect of those squads (and many, many, other winners), and after he sold the club in 1980, his successor Billy Martin left after his 2d year, the aforementioned 68-94 1982. Alderson succeeded, but it took time. In his 16 years in high posts with the A's (he was named President after the 1997 season, handing the GM reins to Billy Beane), the franchise won 4 division titles, 3 AL Pennants, and a WS trophy.

 

This is not a process that occurs overnight in the small markets. We have to be patient. Remember that 1983-'87 .475 Winning % for Alderson's A's? The Brewers' Win % for 2005-'06 = .481. Patience is the biggest thing for Brewer fans to remember. I don't want to hear any "I've been waiting X years...." arguments, as we are only in year 3 of ownership & management having a real 'Money where your mouth is' approach - which is indeed yeilding improvement.

 

Don't take me out of context, I am not making any sweeping predictions. I just want our fans to learn from the past, so as not to be doomed to repeat our own putrid recent history. Wikipedia has this to say about Alderson:

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He is recognized as the first person to run a baseball team utilizing Moneyball.

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The process of building a small-market team into a perennial contender takes time. Be patient with our guys - so far, so good!

 

 

p.s. -- in April of 2005, Alderson was named CEO of the San Diego Padres, another team built (back) into contenders. To be fair, he arrived after the Pads went 87-75 in 2004 (after a 64-98 2003), but his arrival has helped sustain the success of that franchise.

[brettac1]

If you're down with Sandy Alderson, I'm down with you.

[TooLiveBrew]

With our powers combined.....

 

OVER 7,400 posts on BF.net!!!

 

 

I don't mind picking up the slack, either http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Big Reed]

I didn't have any problem with two live brews' response to my post. he made many good points. We share many of the same views. We also have a couple of views that differ.

 

A question I raise is how did the White Sox go from a payroll of $31 million in 2000 to a payroll of $102 million in 2006? Where did all the money come from? I realize they won a world series, but that's a tremendous jump in payroll. I can't believe it was all made possible by a huge jump in attendance. the White Sox did not get a new park in those years. Did they get a new owner who was willing to open his pocket book and actually spend the money it takes to win a championship? is Reinsdorf still their owner? Did he use profits made from the Bulls, and then apply them to the White sox? I ask myself, if the White Sox can go from a payroll of $30 million to a payroll of $100 million in 6 years, why can't the brewers? What is holding us back from also becoming a big spender?

 

the problem I have with the entire profit issue is that tradionally the owner is not concerned about making profit on a year to year basis. Traditionally the baseball owner only makes his profit when he sells the team. Traditionally a baseball owner has made his fortune from other investments, and his baseball team is typically just an expense write off. That's what it is for Steinbrenner, and the owners of Toronto, Baltimore and many other baseball teams. That's also what it was for Ted Turner, Autry and Busch.. Turner never operated the Braves with the concept that they had to remain in the black each year. Gene Autry almost spent his entire fortune on the Angels in his attempt to build a winner. Auggie Busch didn't care what the Cardinals budget was as long as they kept selling beer. The best example of an owner who was soley invested in his baseball team and needed it to make a profit every year was the White Sox Bill Veeck. And Veeck eventually was forced to sell his team.

 

Mr A represents a new breed of owners who are more investment / fiscal oriented. There is nothing wrong with an owner wanting to make a profit every year. I had just hoped the new brewers owner would be a more traditional really rich one like Sam Walton's son or Bill Gates who wanted to use the brewers as his tax write-off and be willing to spend a lot more money on payoll, and not be concerned about the bottom line. Unfortunately, Selig sold the team to a wise investor rather than a foolish old spend thrift.

 

Mr A is credited with expanding his payroll to almost unheard of levels for 2007. But what is not being said very often is that he also received a huge chunk of money from revenue sharing and also a huge chunk of money from the sale of the Nationals. So, in reality, he's not really opening his own pocket book and spending any more money for 2007 than he did in 2005 or 2006. He just has additional revenues given to him to spend.

 

MR A is a great owner and does care about the brewers sucess and future. I just had wished the brewers were sold to somebody like bill gates who was looking for a tax write - off and was willing to $pend $100 million a year. and unfortunately I doubt Mr A will ever be that man.

 

Suppan would be a great signing if the brewers didn't have to worry about their financial limitations. While Mr A has breathed a healthy infusion into the brewers, he has not resolved the problems the brewers face as a small market team. The brewers don't have a level playing field to compete in. That's not Mr A's fault. It's been pointed out by the baseball Commish that many low payroll teams have won a world series. But that doesn't mean the playing field is level. it just means those teams had everything go their way for one year.

 

I'd really like the Brewers to sign Suppan. but realistically, I don't see how they can.

[TooLiveBrew]

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It's been pointed out by the baseball Commish that many low payroll teams have won a world series. But that doesn't mean the playing field is level. it just means those teams had everything go their way for one year.

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I agree & disagree -- You're right that it takes an 'everything falls into place' kind of year to win the WS. However, that's true for even the largest of market teams.

 

I disagree that with the small market teams, it was just one year of good fortune. The Twins, Marlins, and Marlins all were the product of many years' hard work in scouting, drafting, & skillful front office maneuvering. Everyone ripped the Marlins for their infamous 'Firesale' of veterans after 1997, but who would've guessed that in their first 10 years of existence, Florida would have 2 World Championships!

 

I've mentioned this before, but in all honesty, I prefer the challenge of building a team, as opposed to patching one together with FAs - and especially in this crazy MLB economy.

[rluzinski]

The playing field is not level and Mark A. is in it for profit, first and foremost. Can't Brewer fans just accept it and move on? Fair or not, it's not changing anytime soon.