Stop abusing Gallardo!

[Oldcity]

Sorry--pleased about holding out Gallardo.

[pitchleague]

Darn, I was hoping you'd say "both."

 

HEY, EVERYBODY! STEVO IS A TRAITOR! HE DOESN'T WANT THE BREWERS TO WIN 10 IN A ROW!!!! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Start Parra on three days rest for the rest of the season. At least make him earn his money.

[Oldcity]

Darn, I was hoping you'd say "both."

 

HEY, EVERYBODY! STEVO IS A TRAITOR! HE DOESN'T WANT THE BREWERS TO WIN 10 IN A ROW!!!! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

Heh, good point. Definitely both.

[TooLiveBrew]

Another overworking of Gallardo today -- his 4th game of at least 120 pitches out of his 16 starts. Not a fan. It's clear that Macha could care less about overworking him, which, from Macha's p.o.v., I understand. But apparently he thinks it's fine to run a young arm into the ground, as long as you only let him throw around 105 pitches his next start. Then, after that, he's a-ok to get run into the ground again.

 

What's most disappointing to me is that Doug Melvin doesn't see anything wrong with the 24-yo guy you just centered your franchise around throwing an average of 113 pitches per start since May. It sure was important to keep Yo in there with that 5-run lead today.

[cwolf2012]

I disagree with you, TLB. 122 pitches is bad for a 6 or 7 inning game, but for 9 innings, that's less than 15 pitches an inning. That's not stressful at all.

[jwill535]

Agree, there is a huge difference between 6-7 innings of 122 pitches vs 9 innings of 122 pitches.

[Funketown]

It's just a matter of risk versus reward. This outing alone won't kill him, but these things do add up over the course of a long season.

[TooLiveBrew]

Yeah, there's definitely a difference, but I'd like to see the Brewers stop working him so hard. It's not like this is a one-time thing. Macha rode him pretty hard last year, too, iirc.

[Gobias Industries]

He's managing for his job, so why would he care? I'd run the best pitchers into the ground if I was him too.

 

And I gotta disagree with you TLB. 120 for 9 is pretty stress free.

[Polish Falcons]

I think that something like 30/30 managers would leave Gallardo in to get the shutout when he was at 108 pitches after 8 innings. Even if Maccha is "managing for his job", this is not an example of that.

[TooLiveBrew]

He's managing for his job, so why would he care? I'd run the best pitchers into the ground if I was him too.

 

And I gotta disagree with you TLB. 120 for 9 is pretty stress free.

Sorry, thought I was clearer. I'm not overly concerned about this one instance. It's a pattern of being willing to let Gallardo work well past 100, 110 pitches that was taking place last season & is continuing to take place.

[RobDeer 45]

As I called it in the in game thread, I knew this would come up. He was fine after 8 innings and he still had a shut out. He's an ace, a great pitcher, if you think he'd let Macha take him out you're nuts. Plus as others have said 122 pitches over 9 innings is a lot less stressful. There is a difference between laboring through 6 innings and doing well through 9. I also think pitch count is a bit overrated. There are easy outings and tough outings, it's not just the number of pitches you throw. People need to settle down about this.

 

Yo is a competitor, if he does that through 8 he's staying in. Plain and simple.

[afeter]

I think that something like 30/30 managers would leave Gallardo in to get the shutout when he was at 108 pitches after 8 innings. Even if Maccha is "managing for his job", this is not an example of that.

my guess is 22 of 30.

 

[jerichoholicninja]

If pitchers weren't babied so much this wouldn't be an issue. Even today 120 pitches isn't ridiculous, especially over 9 innings.

[Ennder]

I think that something like 30/30 managers would leave Gallardo in to get the shutout when he was at 108 pitches after 8 innings. Even if Maccha is "managing for his job", this is not an example of that.

my guess is 22 of 30.

My guess is 28/30 with the 2 that don't being terrible managers. 120 pitches in a complete game where you rarely had anyone on base is not a big deal at all.

 

If pitchers weren't babied so much this wouldn't be an issue. Even

today 120 pitches isn't ridiculous, especially over 9 innings

 

I agree with the 2nd part of this but to be honest they aren't babied all that much more than 30 years ago. Just 30 years ago hitters didnt' work counts as much and they weren't as good so you didn't throw as many max effort pitches. If your 350 IP pitcher of yesteryear played today they would not throw much more than 240 IP, the game has changed way more than the pitchers have.

[Baldkin]

If pitchers weren't babied so much this wouldn't be an issue. Even today 120 pitches isn't ridiculous, especially over 9 innings.

Really? Yeah, of course it's not a problem. He's only thrown the second most pitches in the league this year.

He's being overworked, again.

[Polish Falcons]

If pitchers weren't babied so much this wouldn't be an issue. Even today 120 pitches isn't ridiculous, especially over 9 innings.

Really? Yeah, of course it's not a problem. He's only thrown the second most pitches in the league this year.

He's being overworked, again.

That was an interesting link. I was looking back on the last ten years of pitch counts and keeping tabs on player injuries. This is not scientific but it did not appear to me that the guys who threw the top 10 most pitches are getting injured at a rate any higher than the guys who were ranked let's say 30-40. Just because you say he threw the 2nd most pitches in the league this year, I'm not going to automatically assume that is a bad thing. The difference between the guy who threw the 2nd most pitches and the guy who threw the 20th most pitches is an average of about 5-7 pitches per game. I think Yovani needs those 5-7 pitches to get through six innings. A big reason is because he has the highest pitch count per plate appearance in the leaugue: 4.11.

[sheethead]

If the score would have been 5-1, Gallardo would have been lifted after 8 IP. CGSOs are a relatively big deal for pitchers, and Yo was still dealing. Not sure what the fuss is over this one.

[DougJones43]

A lot of people here seem to be missing the point. It's not about this one game. It's about repeated high pitch counts, and cumulative abuse dating back to last year when he was coming off a season in which he had only pitched 24 innings due to injury.

[pretendastronaut]

If pitchers weren't babied so much this wouldn't be an issue. Even today 120 pitches isn't ridiculous, especially over 9 innings.

Really? Yeah, of course it's not a problem. He's only thrown the second most pitches in the league this year.

He's being overworked, again.

 

Saying he has the second most pitches throw in the league is a little deceptive though. Of the pitchers who have thrown 130 fewer pitches than Gallardo so far, only 1 of them has an equal amount of starts, and that's Chris Carpenter. Still, that will leave him on the high side of the top ten when they all get their next start, but that still leaves him on roughly the same pace as Chris Carpenter, Ubaldo Jimenez, Roy Halladay, Tim Lincecum, Ryan Dempster and Brett Myers.

 

I guess I'm just willing to trust the system the Brewers are clearly investing in, with bringing in Peterson, doing those scans they did earlier in the year that showed Gallardo was a low injury risk. They've done what the needed to in the past with Yo and Manny with watching their innings pitched and so forth, and have worked to keep their development on the trusted path so far.

 

I think it's pretty brazen to just assume Macha would be willing to jeopardize a kid's future just to try to save his job. That assumes a lot about the makeup of a man to say that, and something we don't have any basis to know. However, I would have to assume if Peterson and/or Melvin thought it was of concern, and Macha did it anyway, doing so isn't going to help save his job then either, if he would be willing to jeopardize Gallardo like that.

[rluzinski]

With a 5 run lead, I don't see the point of pushing it. If there's a 1% chance that 10 less pitches thrown in 5 games makes Yo 1% more fresh in September, I take it. I don't give a crap about a complete game shutout, though.

[Thurston Fluff]

With a 5 run lead, I don't see the point of pushing it. If there's a 1% chance that 10 less pitches thrown in 5 games makes Yo 1% more fresh in September, I take it. I don't give a crap about a complete game shutout, though.

 

While a agree in that it is logical in a vacuum I think sometimes a good manager has to remember he is working with people not a computer program. While we don't care about YoGa's complete game shutout he probably does. If 1% less performance in September is the price of giving YoGa a well deserved personal achievement I'm ok with it. Sometimes humans need that dangling carrot once in a while.

I wouldn't mind if they used Davis as a 6th starter when he returns for one rotation to give YoGa an extra days rest soon.

[rluzinski]

"While a agree in that it is logical in a vacuum I think sometimes a good manager has to remember he is working with people not a computer program."

 

Well, If Gallardo is a rational person, I think he'd get over it. Managers pull their starters all the time in that situation, anyway. It wouldn't be some unprecidented move.

[Tbadder]

I think that's a good point. baseball doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens in a tradition, that for better or worse, is generally respected. I don't care either about shut outs and complete games, but pitchers do. It is a source of pride, and I imagine, a source of negotiation that no starting pitcher wants to cede to a team. It's unfortunate but remember Hume said that "reason is the slave to emotion" and no mathematical proof can stand up to that my friends. We are doomed to stupidity.