Stop abusing Gallardo!

[dadofandrew]

Good investigative work Joe. What you'll find is simple..good pitchers have high pitch counts. Yo's good, hence...

 

I'm much more concerned about repetitive 120+ pitch outings. Those should be rare, and they have been.

[phxMILWfan]

Good investigative work Joe. What you'll find is simple..good pitchers have high pitch counts. Yo's good, hence...

 

I'm much more concerned about repetitive 120+ pitch outings. Those should be rare, and they have been.

 

There has to be a way of saying this but with less condescension. That's not called for. You have a difference of opinion. I happen to buy into limiting pitches and innings thrown for young pitchers or pitchers returning from what is basically a year off. You can think whatever you want but there are studies that support limiting the inning increase from one year to the next. Share a study that shows that it benefits the pitcher or that it doesn't matter and then it will benefit your argument. Simply saying things like "what are they pansies?" or making light of it doesn't help an argument.

[PeaveyFury]

107 has been mentioned a few times tonight, but that was the pitch count Yo started the 8th with- he actually threw 118 tonight. Allowed to hit in the bottom of the 7th, then got one out before being pulled after throwing an extra 11 pitches. I just don't see the point in sending him out there to face two batters in the 8th when he was both batting and already nearing 110 pitches.

[Ennder]

This post goes beyond what a normal pitcher should do, Parra and Gallardo are not normal pitchers, they are young guys who don't have full seasons under their belts and both are coming off of shortened seasons because of injuries/fatigue. Same thing as Sheets last season, Eldred in his rookie year, Sheets in what should have been his CY year, Capuano when they pitched him on short rest to chase 20 wins etc This franchise has shown a lack of understanding of how to treat pitching and I really dislike it.

[Marc Newfield of Dreams]

I thought Macha played it perfectly tonight. He had a low-stress 7th inning, and I felt like it was a good idea to pull him when he did.

 

With the bullpen's track record lately, I'd rather ride Gallardo until he put a guy on in the 8th.

 

The one thing a lot of people seem to forget is this- his delivery is excellent. He has great mechanics and never strains out there. His velocity is consistent, and he does not throw a ton of high torque pitches like a slider. Pedro Liriano he is not.

[Ennder]

I thought Macha played it perfectly tonight. He had a low-stress 7th inning, and I felt like it was a good idea to pull him when he did.

And if he hadn't been hurt and missed 80% of the season last year I'd agree but he was hurt and he missed most of the season. He is also the only plus pitching prospect we have that is likely to pitch in the next 2.5 years. This is a pitcher you really need to baby this season.

[UeckerAddict]

Isn't this a double-edged sword situation?

 

So many people have bemoaned that we A.) Don't have the starting pitching to make the post season and B.) We are wearing out our bullpen with too many short starts. No one but Yo has demonstrated the ability to pitch deep into ballgames, so don't you kind of have to rely on your ace to do that? Stetter, Coffey, and CV have all thrown in 40+ games, Difelice is at 39, we know Trevor doesn't have the ability to pitch more than 2 games in a row, McClung is struggling, and Chris Smith is garbage time U.S.A. What can you do? Guarantee that your bullpen will have to throw at least 3 innings every game? I just don't see that as a formula for success. If Yo has confidence that he can go (and let's face it, Yo would have more to lose personally and financially in the future than anyone if he claimed he was fine when he wasn't. As far as personal interest goes, there is no reason for him to do it), what other options do we really have?

[Baldkin]

If you're going to throw Coffee, almost no matter what... why not pinch hit for Yo and leave him at 105 pitches?

 

That was a Yostian move tonight.

[Oldcity]

And again, if it was just this isolated incident it's not a huge deal. But Macha has repeatedly passed obvious situations to remove him from the game this season. These are situations where it not only made sense because he's a young pitcher coming off injury, but it even made sense within the game situation. He still leaves him in even when the game situation doesn't call for it.

[JoeHova]

Good investigative work Joe. What you'll find is simple..good pitchers have high pitch counts. Yo's good, hence...

I'm not sure if this is sarcastic. I choose to believe it's not. It's definitely true that the guys who have thrown the most pitches tend to be the best pitchers but I don't think anybody was arguing that point, as it makes sense on many levels. (Yovani's up to 9th, but the leaderboard obviously fluctuates quite a bit day by day. All but 3 of the current top 30 guys in pitch count have ERA's under 4.) It's more about this specific pitcher and the fact that he threw 36.2 total innings last year. He's on pace to throw 214, after throwing 188 in 2007. That increase seems fine, it's the intervening year with very few pitches that is slightly worrisome. Overall, I think they've done an OK job with Yovani's workload but I wouldn't mind seeing them be just a little more careful. He's really all they've got in terms of pitching, if he goes down again, the team is totally boned. I haven't seen any rigorous studies about the correlation between pitch counts and injuries, but I don't think it would hurt the team much to be conservative with Yovani when possible.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

If last night was a somewhat isolated incident that's one thing, but it isn't. Yo's had some extra days off recently so that's worth a few extra pitches so at this point it may be ok. However, the back end of the bullpen...Coffey, Stetter and Hoffman has been fine. He got them through 7. That should have been enough. He is getting overused. I hope they pull off the gas as the year winds down.

[bklynbrewcrew]

I hate the way Macha has handled both Gallardo and Parra. There have been too many times where he has pushed the envelope and asked them to throw that one extra inning. Gallardo pitched 24 innings last season and he is a key to the franchises success for years to come. He completely needs to be handled with care this season even if that jeopardizes our playoff hopes.

[jwill535]

For some reason when I read this title, this is what always comes to mind.

http://coreyking.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/chris-crocker-cries.jpg

[JohnBriggs12]

I hate the way Macha has handled both Gallardo and Parra. There have been too many times where he has pushed the envelope and asked them to throw that one extra inning. Gallardo pitched 24 innings last season and he is a key to the franchises success for years to come. He completely needs to be handled with care this season even if that jeopardizes our playoff hopes.

What, so Gallardo will have plenty left for his seasons in New York, Boston or Dallas?

 

How do you guys who advocate babying pitchers think guys got to the Hall of Fame? HOF pitchers pitched. A lot. Gallardo's not 19 or 20. He's fully developed physically. Parra's close to 27 which is pretty much right in his prime years.

[LouisEly]

Actually, Yo hasn't shown the ability to go deep into games. Only twice in his last 10 starts has he walked fewer than four guys. That's my biggest concern right now. Four of his last 10 starts he hasn't gone more than five innings because of the walks and high pitch counts.

[TooLiveBrew]

Gallardo's not 19 or 20. He's fully developed physically.

 

He's 23. He threw 24 innings last season. The Brewers have cost control over him through at least 2013, as best I can tell. His pitch counts & usage are incredibly important to monitor.

 

Macha has lost what redeeming values he had to me (handling the pitching staff) at this point.

 

 

 

Also, to jwill --- nicely played http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[jeffy]

23 is not 19 or 20, right?

 

What he threw during major league games last season does not consitute a complete analysis of what he did with his arm. He did some minor league pitching and other rehab work, didn't he? Do we know what he did over the winter?

 

Many here start freaking out every time he is over about 90 pitches. This ain't Little League, and even if it were their limit for 17-18 year olds is 105 pitches and 3 days of rest before they can do it again.

[Ennder]

Many here start freaking out every time he is over about 90 pitches

 

They freak out when he is over 105 pitches and gets sent out for another full inning, that is a pretty far cry from 90 pitches. It has also generally been 105 pitches through 6 innings with a lot of runner son, I wouldn't mind it nearly as much if it were through 7 with very few base runners.

 

How do you guys who advocate babying pitchers think guys got to the Hall of Fame?

 

By being healthy most of their careers, which isn't something Gallardo or Parra have been so far. If we were talking Dave Bush I'd have absolutely no problem with, someone like Oswalt, Santana etc no problem. These are very specific cases of pitchers who have not gone a full season yet in the major league careers and who are coming off of injury/fatigue shortened seasons. These are exceptions we are talking about, not the rule.

[Thurston Fluff]

How does a knee injury hurt YoGa's arm health? Injuries are not all created equal. The knee injury was a contact one not a wear and tear one so I doubt it has any effect on his arm health going forward any more than players who have no injury history at all.

I think JohnBriggs is right about the abuse. Why should we save him for the Yankee's or Angels benefit? He has already used about half his time with us up. If we don't use the players we have when we have them we will always be playing with half a deck. YoGa's value to this team is as a staff ace who can go deep and save the pen. He cannot do that unless he's playing. He has not been doing that as of late because he just wasn't pitching very well. Now that he is pitching well we are supposed to pull him out despite pitching well so we can use the already overworked bullpen one more inning? A bullpen he helped overwork lately I might add.

I am concerned about getting as much use out of YoGa as anyone. I just think taxing his arm now isn't as big a deal for next couple years as it would be 5 years down the road.

[jeffy]

They freak out when he is over 105 pitches...

Note that I said "... start ...", from IGt during his last start:

Yo at 98 pitches, maybe Macha should pull him now.

Of course "freaking out" is an intentional exageration...how about this: the worrying starts about 90 pitches and the pitch count talk starts even earlier.

 

Again, 105 is a limit that applies to little leaguers 5-6 years younger than Yo. As has been said, we may as well use him as the Brewers will eventually lose him.

[TooLiveBrew]

People can dismiss pitch counts, really doesn't change anything. Pitchers (esp. young ones) that are routinely worked well over 100 pitches get hurt more. I really don't know why anyone tries to dispute this & make it an issue of 'being a man'/'being a baby'

[Thurston Fluff]

TO me it's more about how to best use a guy whom you have for six years. Year one we broke him in, year two we lost due to injury and we are now on year three. It we monitor him so closely that we harm the bullpen's effectiveness later then we have just lost 50% of his time with us where he is less than the top level pitcher we so desperately need him to be. If the idea is only to use him to his fullest extent the final year of his contract I just don't know if we got the most out of his career here.

[DuWayne Steurer]

How do you guys who advocate babying pitchers think guys got to the Hall of Fame?

Chances are, someone who's in the Hall of Fame is an extraordinarily exceptional talent. When we start using Hall of Famers for measuring sticks, you're grossly tilting the argument in your favor artificially, when there's less than 100 or so pitchers in the hall of fame, and something like 6,000-ish who've ever played the game. And some of those hall of famers also flamed out early, due to overuse and abuse.

[Oldcity]

And how many more pitchers would be in the Hall if they hadn't had careers cut short due to injury? Impossible to say.

[jeffy]

People can dismiss pitch counts, really doesn't change anything. Pitchers (esp. young ones) that are routinely worked well over 100 pitches get hurt more...

Not many are dismissing pitch counts. Counting them does not tell you how many you should allow. Neither you nor anyone else knows precisely how many pitches in each game is the optimal number for Yo to throw.

 

How old is "young"?

 

How many is "well over 100"? That sure does not sound like it would mean 105 to me, perhaps it means 120 or 130???