Stop abusing Gallardo!

[logan82]

I am not sure Gallardo is worried about his next contract at this point. I doubt a shutout in June of 2010 is going to matter much to whomever is negotiating with Gallardo's agent in the 2014 or 2015 offseason.

[Thurston Fluff]

Well, If Gallardo is a rational person, I think he'd get over it. Managers pull their starters all the time in that situation, anyway. It wouldn't be some unprecidented move.

 

No it isn't unprecedented but I think each one pulled in that situation had it's own set of circumstances that made the manager chose to pull the pitcher. Some (by no means all) of those circumstances is the pitchers mentality. Gregg Maddux was a guy who was reputed not to care about those things all that much yet Nolan Ryan would rather cut his foot off than give up a complete game shutout.

I wouldn't be surprised if the next game has YoGa at 90 pitches after 7 innings he'll get pulled. Sometimes letting a guy go long in one game is mitigated by shortening up his next one. As far as what that does to his arm I think letting a guy who is going as well as YoGa was yesterday is less damaging than 90 pitches in 6 inning when he's struggling. I would let a guy throwing free and easy go throw more pitches than someone fighting himself.

[sheethead]

I doubt a shutout in June of 2010 is going to matter much to whomever is negotiating with Gallardo's agent in the 2014 or 2015 offseason.

 

Probably not, but if its one of many they may start to add up. I sure hope the same people complaining about Yo pitching the 9th yesterday are the same ones who were complaining about him pinch-hitting a month ago.

[TheCrew07]

I can definitely see both sides of the argument here. Personally, I'm interested in extending Yo's career than I am caring about CGSO...

 

I agree that 9 innings and 120 pitches isn't the end of the world, that was one of the least stressful outings of his entire career by inning. I have a huge problem when he's being run 120 pitches in 6 innings though.

 

I'm much more into the mental aspect of sports than it seems many on this site are, so from a development standpoint we need him to become more efficient with his pitches and a strong argument can be made that this string of outings is moving him towards that end.

 

I must say that if Yo can getting through the 7th with a reasonable pitch count and Parra continues to improve, I'm suddenly pretty excited about next year's rotation, especially if a pitcher like Rivas makes the opening day roster.

[joepepsi]

As far as what that does to his arm I think letting a guy who is going as well as YoGa was yesterday is less damaging than 90 pitches in 6 inning when he's struggling. I would let a guy throwing free and easy go throw more pitches than someone fighting himself.

That's the bottom line. Lots of research shows injuries happen when a pitcher is fatigued. Of course pitch counts are a big factor in fatigue, but other scenarios figure in too, like the weather, length of the game, whether the pitcher is struggling with command. This game was relatively short, innings went smooth and didn't drag on, Yo was throwing free and easy. He was the best pitcher available to go out in the 9th inning. I doubt this game has any effect on his next couple outings. I don't think the fact he threw 10 more pitches than he should have yesterday, given how dominating he was, will have any effect on his performance in September.

[HiAndTight]

Well, If Gallardo is a rational person, I think he'd get over it. Managers pull their starters all the time in that situation, anyway. It wouldn't be some unprecidented move.

 

No it isn't unprecedented but I think each one pulled in that situation had it's own set of circumstances that made the manager chose to pull the pitcher. Some (by no means all) of those circumstances is the pitchers mentality. Gregg Maddux was a guy who was reputed not to care about those things all that much yet Nolan Ryan would rather cut his foot off than give up a complete game shutout.

I wouldn't be surprised if the next game has YoGa at 90 pitches after 7 innings he'll get pulled. Sometimes letting a guy go long in one game is mitigated by shortening up his next one. As far as what that does to his arm I think letting a guy who is going as well as YoGa was yesterday is less damaging than 90 pitches in 6 inning when he's struggling. I would let a guy throwing free and easy go throw more pitches than someone fighting himself.

I think that's a great point backup.

 

I'm a guy who isn't as worried about Yo as someone like Manny Parra who I think has almost no chance to start for 5-6 years without suffering a serious injury, as I think Yo's got a very smooth, free and easy delivery, but I still don't like the PC's he's been racking up.

 

115 over 8/9 IP is a lot better than 100 over 5, but still, we need to start looking for chances to back off the 24 year old future of the franchise.

 

As for this last outing, sitting behind a computer screen I'd have taken him out after 7 up 5-0, but the game isn't played behind a computer screen. You have the human element, the clubhouse dynamic, pitchers getting annoyed with Macha for pulling them when they've got something special going....not to mention even Macha has stated the CGSH is a significant accomplishment and a big point in a pitchers career.

[Flood Pants]

I understand the point about the human element and keeping your players happy. However, I'd argue that increasing your chances of winning more games is a good way to keep players happy, but that may require some tough decisions in the short term, like pulling your ace when he's dominating in low-pressure innings. Maybe Yo would have been upset in the short term, but I think it's a calculated risk. I'm sure he'd be more upset if he lost his effectiveness the next outing or even gotten hurt.

 

I think good managers do have to consider keeping their players happy, but they also need to know when what they want is not what's best for the team (or even for them). It's a tough call, but I think taking Yo out probably would have been the right decision.

[HiAndTight]

I understand the point about the human element and keeping your players happy. However, I'd argue that increasing your chances of winning more games is a good way to keep players happy, but that may require some tough decisions in the short term, like pulling your ace when he's dominating in low-pressure innings. Maybe Yo would have been upset in the short term, but I think it's a calculated risk. I'm sure he'd be more upset if he lost his effectiveness the next outing or even gotten hurt.

 

I think good managers do have to consider keeping their players happy, but they also need to know when what they want is not what's best for the team (or even for them). It's a tough call, but I think taking Yo out probably would have been the right decision.

Yes, but you'd have to convince your team that pulling Gallardo with a shutout in the 7th was increasing your teams chances to win. I doubt you could do that.

[Flood Pants]

Yes, but you'd have to convince your team that pulling Gallardo with a shutout in the 7th was increasing your teams chances to win. I doubt you could do that.

Not in the short term, in the long term. Yo and the rest of the team may very well have been upset in the moment, but if it increases their chances of winning Yo's next start (or next few starts), then it's worth doing.

[thebruce44]

Yes, but you'd have to convince your team that pulling Gallardo with a shutout in the 7th was increasing your teams chances to win. I doubt you could do that.

Not in the short term, in the long term. Yo and the rest of the team may very well have been upset in the moment, but if it increases their chances of winning Yo's next start (or next few starts), then it's worth doing.

Exactly, MLB players are smart enough to realize that you are playing for a season record. In my opinion it wouldn't be hard at all to convince your team that pulling Yo out was the best thing for increasing your team's chances to win more games over the course of the season.

[mletto157]

No one complained when Narveson was having the best outing of his career with a shutout after the 8th inning, slightly over 100 pitches, and gets taken out to let Axford close it down. I would have to assume that if Macha chose to do this same thing with Gallardo a couple days ago we would have the same result. A win, and no one real upset. It's not like he was going for the perfect game, or a no-hitter anymore. I'm sure Gallardo would have been OK with getting taken out in that scenario. However, I also really don't see much harm... as others have said, he was pretty much cruising through the game. All-in-all I don't think there's much to complain about in either point of view. The problem only comes up if you leave Gallardo in and he gets hurt, or if you take him out and your BP loses the game.

[joepepsi]

Gallardo has started 5 games this year in which he was lifted after the 6th and the bullpen blew any chance of winning. 4 of those games he got a no decision, sso the team was either leading or tied when he left the game. The manager is trying to claw his team back into this thing, so I don't blame him for making sure they'd win this one. I agree they need to watch his pitch counts, but they also need to win games over these couple of weeks to see if there anything to salvage from the season. If they are still under .500 and 8 games behind the wild card in a month, then resting Yo's arm takes priority.

[FVBrewerFan]

Well, Narveson only had a 3 run lead, and a well-rested Axford in the bullpen. Narveson is not YoGo, and it was the right choice to secure his win after his best outing of the year. Did Yo absolutely NEED to have a CG? Of course not. But every once in a while you need to make a statement. YoGo is trying to make the statement that he is a true ace, and I think that helps the overall good vibe in the clubhouse.

[TheCrew07]

Gallardo has started 5 games this year in which he was lifted after the 6th and the bullpen blew any chance of winning. 4 of those games he got a no decision,

Maybe just maybe the issue here is actually how inefficient Yo has been and not getting him wins? Had Macha pitched Yo out to 130 pitches in any of those games to get through the 8th I would have driven down to MP and given him a beat down myself. We're grasping at straws here as justification, for an outing that really doesn't require any justification.

 

TLB made a legitimate point about wear and tear on a young arm that apparently some here are still unwilling to accept (Cole Hamels anyone?). Was it necessary to get Yo the complete game shut out? No it wasn't. Is it going to hurt anything? No. Yo has had much more stressful 6 inning appearances this season alone.

 

However just because Macha didn't screw up this time, doesn't mean that TLB's other point about him managing for his job isn't a valid concern either... This is still the same man that ran Narveson to 130 pitches, the same guy that doesn't proactively get up relievers when his starters are nearing the end, the same guy that rode Gallardo like a rented mule all last season, and so on.

[HiAndTight]

Exactly, MLB players are smart enough to realize that you are playing for a season record. In my opinion it wouldn't be hard at all to convince your team that pulling Yo out was the best thing for increasing your team's chances to win more games over the course of the season.

I didn't suggest they were smart enough to realize that the overall seasonal record is more important than one game. What I do question is that would agree there is a direct correlation to improving that seasonal record by taking out a pitcher going for a significant personal achievement with 90-ish pitches after 7 innings rather than allowing him to finish the game.

 

In my opinion, I think that'd be a move that would cause a lot of bickering.

 

 

Players aren't pouring over these things like we are. They're not all looking at Yovani's pitch counts and coming to the conclusion that he's been throwing too many pitches. I think they'd look at it, see a guy who'd given up just 2 hits, no runs and was dealing at about 90 pitches and they'd be pissed they yanked him.

 

Could be wrong, but I think you're giving these guys too much credit.

[HiAndTight]

mletto157]No one complained when Narveson was having the best outing of his career with a shutout after the 8th inning, slightly over 100 pitches, and gets taken out to let Axford close it down. I would have to assume that if Macha chose to do this same thing with Gallardo a couple days ago we would have the same result. A win, and no one real upset. It's not like he was going for the perfect game, or a no-hitter anymore. I'm sure Gallardo would have been OK with getting taken out in that scenario. However, I also really don't see much harm... as others have said, he was pretty much cruising through the game. All-in-all I don't think there's much to complain about in either point of view. The problem only comes up if you leave Gallardo in and he gets hurt, or if you take him out and your BP loses the game.

I think the difference between Gallardo and Narveson is enormous and accounts for the substantial difference in these two situations.

[joepepsi]

Maybe just maybe the issue here is actually how inefficient Yo has been and not getting him wins? Had Macha pitched Yo out to 130 pitches in any of those games to get through the 8th I would have driven down to MP and given him a beat down myself......Yo has had much more stressful 6 inning appearances this season alone.

 

However just because Macha didn't screw up this time, doesn't mean that TLB's other point about him managing for his job isn't a valid concern either... This is still the same man that ran Narveson to 130 pitches, the same guy that doesn't proactively get up relievers when his starters are nearing the end, the same guy that rode Gallardo like a rented mule all last season, and so on.

I agree Yo has had many 6 inning appearances this year that were probably more stressful than last week's complete game.

 

In 2009 Yo had only one appearance where he threw more than 120 pitches and just 6 starts where he threw 115-118 pitches. He certainly didn't need to make his last two starts in 2009, but 30 starts and 185 ip doesn't seem overly abusive to me.

 

I guess we'll see today whether the complete game had any effect. On the other hand, as has been posted repeatedly by others in the last couple weeks, one game's result is tied heavily to luck, so however he does tonight, maybe won't mean a thing.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Yo seemed to struggle with his curve last night. It's one game so you never know, but I would agree they are leaning on him a little too much.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing Yo get some extra rest here. They could slide Davis into the rotation before the all-star break and go 6 starters for one time through. With the break coming up it wouldn't cost Yo a start and would give him an extra day after the Cardinals start. If we are in the same position as last year and are mathematically eliminated I'd shut him down immediately...skip those last couple starts.

[Invader3K]

I hate to bring this up, but yesterday on the broadcast they mentioned that Gallardo would be in line to pitch the day of the All-Star Game...

[TooLiveBrew]

Just wanted to say I was really happy with Macha lifting Gallardo last night after only 95 pitches. Hawkins, Hoffman, & Axford closed out the game with really efficient innings, so I doubt any of them are that gassed.

[DHonks]

Me too, although I prefer it when he brings in a reliever (Cappy?) that is capable of finishing the game instead of using 3-4 others

[RightFieldCoder]

We need Cappy for the next time a starter goes 3 innings (which with this pitching staff is every 3-4 days). Also, will Wolf be able to make his next start? Cappy might be saved for then.