Stop abusing Gallardo!

[Oldcity]

For the most part, I've liked what I've seen so far from Ken Macha. Watching a team as closely as we do, it's inevitable that you'll find things to disagree with. By far my biggest complaint about Macha, more than his handling of Mat Gamel, is how much he's abused Yovani Gallardo already this season.

 

It's so reminiscent of Yost with Sheets last season. Yo will be throwing a good game and finish an inning around 100 pitches, and rather than take him out, Macha will push it and send him out for an extra inning. It's alright to do that every now and then, but it's been happening way too much. Yo has thrown 110 pitches or more six times already this season.

 

There have been multiple examples of times that Macha has attempted to squeeze an extra inning out of him when it was completely unnecessary. Look no further than his last two starts. Against San Francisco, he was right around 100 pitches after the seventh--an inning which he was lucky to escape unscathed. The Brewers had a 5-0 lead at that point. There was no reason not to turn it over to the bullpen for the last two innings; the game wasn't even close! Of course, he put Gallardo back out there, and he couldn't even finish the eighth--and racked up 118 pitches in the process.

 

Today was another example. He was at 100 pitches after the sixth, was leading off the bottom of the sixth, and the Brewers were down 1-0! There was no reason not to pinch hit for him. Instead of taking six great innings and jumping at a chance to remove him without running up a high pitch count, they sent him out for another inning and he hit 114 pitches.

 

As of yesterday, Gallardo ranked 11th in baseball in pitcher abuse points. He'll likely move up after today's start. There's no reason a young pitcher who missed almost all of last season should be anywhere near that high! Yo is the most irreplaceable player on the team, and they need to start treating him that way.

[bklynbrewcrew]

I couldnt agree more with the premise of this post. Its as if Macha doesnt know that Gallardo threw less than 50 innings last season. This organization has one young ace starter and thats Gallardo. We need to start valuing him more highly not just for this year but for the future as well. We cannot continue to throw him that one extra inning every start. I really fear that this is gonna come back and haunt this organization.

 

He can throw the likes of Suppan or Looper all he wants. Im not concerned about the risk of injury to guys like that. We clearly abused Sheets and Sabathia last year and that was bad enough; its excusable though because they were not going to be a part of our future. With Gallardo we need to be a lot smarter as he is as important as any member of this organization both today and for years to come.

[shelmark]

It's amazing with today's mindset that anyone ever throws more than 200 innings in a season. Gallardo is and will be fine. As far as Gamel goes, he is hitting nothing hard and is playing as much as he should. Macha knows what he is doing. Gamel shouldn't even be on the team. He looks confused.

[tyguy20204]

I totally agree with you Stevo, but keep in mind that quite a few of these surplus innings are low-leverage situations in games where he really hasn't had to struggle at all.

[dlk9s]

Actually, of all the times to keep him in the game, today was one of them. We obviously needed to hold the Mets to as few runs as possible, so if Gallardo felt fine, I am fine with sending him out for one more inning, as he was mowing down the opposing batters.

[TheCrew07]

It's amazing with today's mindset that anyone ever throws more than 200 innings in a season. Gallardo is and will be fine. As far as Gamel goes, he is hitting nothing hard and is playing as much as he should. Macha knows what he is doing. Gamel shouldn't even be on the team. He looks confused.

Lame Yuku ate my first on this... I'm not sure what Gamel has to do with Yo at all, totally dissimilar situations in every way, except it appears that Macha isn't good at handling prospects.

 

Yo is the one irreplaceable player on this team, without him the team is dead in the water, not only in 2009, but for years to come. He's the one significant talent we have in the rotation. I despise PAP even though it supports my argument in this case, because you're most healthy and effective pitchers will always have the highest PAP. My problem with this has everything to do with Yo only pitching 24 innings last season. The previous year in 2007 he pitched a career high 187 which was a significant jump from 155 the year before. I'm not going to rehash the pitching injury nexus in detail, there's plenty of information around the web on it. I would rather the team take a long-term approach with Yo, I don't see any good reason to push him past 200 IP this season even if his arm can take it. Again, the young man only pitched 24 innings last season... 24! We needed this season to let Yo get his feet back under him and see how Parra was going to develop. Instead we're riding Yo like a rented mule and the only other pitcher with significant talent pitched his way into the AAA rotation.

 

What good is making the playoffs if Yo isn't available to pitch? How far are we going to go? If he suffers an injury it kills the future and then the team might as well sell off Hardy, Hart, and Fielder because the rotation won't be competitive for years otherwise. Melvin and Macha had better know what they doing because if they ruin Yo I will never forgive them. They can push Bush, Looper, and Suppan all they want but they haven't been effective enough to warrant it game and game out, unfortunately the only pitcher getting pushed is the one pitcher in the rotation whose innings pitched should be limited this season.

 

If Gerut isn't going to play then DFA him (I know he played today), go with a shorter bench, and get an extra bullpen arm up so Macha isn't so concerned about saving the bullpen.

[Oldcity]

It's amazing with today's mindset that anyone ever throws more than 200 innings in a season. Gallardo is and will be fine.

 

It's great that you say this, but what's your reasoning for it? Just because you say Gallardo will be fine doesn't make it so. All sorts of evidence/studies on pitching indicate what the Brewers are doing to Gallardo is putting his health in jeopardy. Are they supposed to ignore the fact that he threw less than 40 innings last season?

[mkm13]

Some of Macha's moves lately show me he puts way more emphesis on winning right now than being concerned about the future. Maybe that is because he is older and doesn't plan on being around for awhile. Gallardo shouldn't be throwing this much a season after 50 innings and Gamel's service time shouldn't be being wasted as a part time player (I am not saying Gamel is better than the other options really just that he needs to play either in the MLB or AAA, I don't care which at this point).

[Invader3K]

Well, considering how the expectation is to make the playoffs again, I don't think you can really blame him for that. It's not Macha's job to worry about how much service time guys are accumulating, it's Doug Melvin's.

[JonnyLungs]

I'd be a lot more concerned if Yo was eclipsing 120 pitches with any amount of frequency. He's come close, but you also have to look at the stress of the pitches. As it stands, I'm not all that concerned.

[pitchleague]

You also have to take into account

 

at least a little bit, the things that we don't know. Perhaps Castro and Macha both have wanted to take Yo out of games at the 95-100 pitch count but when they discussed in with Gallardo he told them, "I'm good to go, coach. I've got another inning in me," or the like. Macha could be accepting that and letting him go out there. Or he could go against his pitcher's wishes and alienate Gallardo a bit. If Gallardo is getting mad at his usage that could possibly be bad, too.

 

It doesn't seem to bother Yo that he's getting used as much as he is. Is he worried? Perhaps. Is Macha worried? Perhaps. We just don't know. It's fun to speculate that Macha is overusing him and doesn't care about the future, etc. But we all do not know the entire story behind this.

 

I'm not thrilled with his pitch counts, for the record, but he looks fine right now. Time will tell if these high pitch counts will catch up with him in August and September and in 2010 or if he's going to be one of those "freaks of nature" that have no problems with his arm.

[JohnBriggs12]

Personally, I don't think Gallardo's being abused. But Macha is the manager now and he has to be thinking "win now" or he won't be around very long. He's keeping an eye on the pitch count. The chances of Gallardo being a Brewer at age 30 are slim anyway.

 

Great pitchers throw a lot of innings no matter what age. Lincecum threw 227 last year and is on pace to equal or surpass that this year. But even that is nothing compared to back in the 60's and 70's. He averages right around 110 (roughly the same as Yo) pitches per start and he throws with a lot more effort than Gallardo does.

 

You take performance when you get it. The goal is to win, not develop pitchers to win elsewhere or to make sure guys get big contracts down the line. There's no guarantees in this game. Guys who are babied get hurt too.

[JohnBriggs12]

Some of Macha's moves lately show me he puts way more emphesis on winning right now than being concerned about the future. Maybe that is because he is older and doesn't plan on being around for awhile. Gallardo shouldn't be throwing this much a season after 50 innings and Gamel's service time shouldn't be being wasted as a part time player (I am not saying Gamel is better than the other options really just that he needs to play either in the MLB or AAA, I don't care which at this point).

Macha's not that old. He falls right in the middle of the pack age-wise among NL managers He's considerably younger than Piniella, LaRussa, Cox, Charlie Manuel and Torre. He's also younger than Cooper too. But no manager can plan on "being around for a while". That's not the nature of the job.

[Marc Newfield of Dreams]

I'm not worried about Yo.

 

He's not an extraordinarily hard-thrower, and he doesn't rely on a lot of hard sliders or pitches that put a lot of strain on the arm.

 

Gallardo has such a smooth, effortless delivery that I think his arm will be fine. He rarely appears to be straining out there.

[1992casey]

Lame Yuku ate my first on this...

 

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The workaround is to use the Preview function early and often, especially if you're using Firefox or another Mozilla browser. That way, if you lose something, you'll be able to grab the last previewed version of your post by using the back button.

[Patrick425]

I completely agree with shelmark. As I have stated in these types of posts in the past, I can't stand the way pitchers are babied in today's game.

[mmerde]

I have a question for those who are more familiar with the injury/innings pitched studies. Do the studies say anything about how these innings should be used? Let's say Gallardo throws an extra inning in every appearance, but is skipped twice during the season. Would that reduce the injury risk to the same degree as limiting his innings per game without skipping any starts?

[chuckiehacks]

I know I've heard of a study that showed that total pitches isn't the issue. It's actually the number of long innings that create concern. Under this theory, Yo throwing 7 or 8 15-pitch innings isn't as bad as Parra throwing 4 30-pitch innings.

 

I don't have time right now to look this up, but I think I've heard it discussed in several different places.

[Ennder]

I completely agree with shelmark. As I have stated in these types of posts in the past, I can't stand the way pitchers are babied in today's game.

I'm fine with this opinion with most pitchers, I disagree with it but I can understand it at least. But with a pitcher like Gallardo who missed the majority of the previous season it baffles me that you think babying him some is wrong.

 

In addition I really question whether pitchers are babied now or not. This year the average starter has thrown 96 pitches. In 1990 the average was 93 per game. In 1988 it was 96 per game. Starting pitching usage hasn't really changed in the past 21 years other than not skipping 5th starters very often, there is just more focus on it now. The innings are down because the hitters are better and working the count is stressed more so pitchers can't go as many innings. Your favorite 300 IP pitcher wouldn't be throwing much over 225-230 in today's game, not because they were babied but because the game has changed.

[logan82]

I don't think the pitch count was the questionable part so much as letting Gallardo hit when we were down a run.

 

The manager's job is to worry about this year and use the guys on the roster in the way which he thinks will win us the game on any given day. The GM's job is to worry about the future of the franchise and give the manager the guys to win in the current year.

[DHonks]

Yo's handling, Macha's near allergy to bunting (except yesterday) and stealing, and his desire to find time for Hall at the expense of Gamel are three of the major reasons I am upset with Macha and view Yost as a better manager.

[Legacy25GT]

I think that pitchcount is a bit too overanalyzed. I don't see why everyone freaks out over a few pitches here and there. I don't see how making 10 more pitches a game can make that much of a difference, especially when you consider that they're also throwing probably 10 warmup pitches every inning that are never included in the pitch count. How come managers don't try to limit those pitches? I don't think there is that much of a difference between 100 and 115 pitches.

[logan82]

Macha's near allergy to bunting

 

Macha bunts plenty with the pitchers. He rarely lets them hit with guys on base, 2nd or 3rd base open and fewer than 2 outs.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't think there is that much of a difference between 100 and 115 pitches.

In any given start, I suppose that's true. But it's been pretty well-documented that repeated use over 100 pitches per game leads to pitcher injuries.

[Oldcity]

You also have to take into account at least a little bit, the things that we don't know. Perhaps Castro and Macha both have wanted to take Yo out of games at the 95-100 pitch count but when they discussed in with Gallardo he told them, "I'm good to go, coach. I've got another inning in me," or the like. Macha could be accepting that and letting him go out there. Or he could go against his pitcher's wishes and alienate Gallardo a bit. If Gallardo is getting mad at his usage that could possibly be bad, too.

...

I'm not thrilled with his pitch counts, for the record, but he looks fine right now. Time will tell if these high pitch counts will catch up with him in August and September and in 2010 or if he's going to be one of those "freaks of nature" that have no problems with his arm.

 

Sheets always wanted to go out for that extra inning too. Sometimes what the player wants isn't in his best interests, and it's the job of the manager to realize that.

 

Of course Yo looks fine now. Now isn't when it would affect him. It would affect him in August/September of this season or next season.