Gamel situation

[paul253]

The Brewers have a guy in Nashville who deserves a shot. Adam Heether has been tearing it up. He's not a top notch prospect like Gamel so him sitting on the bench 4 days a week won't be as big of a deal. I just don't understand their current strategy. You bring up your #1 prospect and you sit him on the bench? What is the point? Then Macha continues to start Bill Hall even though Bill Hall is easily the worst hitter on the team. I don't get it.

[brewmann04]

I agree Totally Paul Macha keeping Gamel on the Bench for Hall is Terrible. Please send him down so he can get regular playing time and continue to work on his Defense. I also agree about Heether he can Play 3rd when Casey moved to second.

[endaround]

The whole plan was easy to see. First it was to platoon Lamb and Hall until Gamel proved himself in AAA and then he would be up in June and Lamb cut. Likely thats why Branyan was basically handed off to Seattle. Then Lamb showed himself to be done so McGehee got the job. Not a big deal since McGehee still had options and he would just be sent down when Gamel was ready. Then Weeks got hurt. Gamel came up but McGehee couldn't go down because he was need at 2B. Then McGehee started to hit. So the Brewers were stuck to a degree.

[brewmann04]

Gamel needs to be playing Full time Send him down and continue to learn on Playing Defense with Don Money. Gamel sitting on the Bench does not do any good for the Player.

[kramnoj]

Adam Heether has been tearing it up.

 

We need to pay attention to all ramifications. Since Heether isn't on the 40 man, it isn't likely that he will be the one called up. If Gamel goes down, it would be for Irribarren.

 

As far as service time goes, I thought it was said at the time that Gamel came up that he would end this year with less than one year of ST if he stayed up the rest of the way. Do we know whether that's correct or not?

[logan82]

I think he would have one year. He had service time in September last year. You only need 172 days of service to acquire a year of service time and there are 183 calendar days in the baseball season.

[JJHardy7]

The whole plan was easy to see. First it was to platoon Lamb and Hall until Gamel proved himself in AAA and then he would be up in June and Lamb cut. Likely thats why Branyan was basically handed off to Seattle. Then Lamb showed himself to be done so McGehee got the job. Not a big deal since McGehee still had options and he would just be sent down when Gamel was ready. Then Weeks got hurt. Gamel came up but McGehee couldn't go down because he was need at 2B. Then McGehee started to hit. So the Brewers were stuck to a degree.

How does that 'plan' have anything to do with Gamel? That sounds more like the Brewers botched the Gamel situation. There are other options than Gamel at AAA that can play multiple infield positions. Heether makes a lot more sense right now than Gamel does since he can play more positions. This isn't a knock on Mat. It's just the fact that Gamel can't find his way into games right now and that's not how you treat your best prospect...at all. This in no way has helped Mat develop as a hitter. We can debate fielding, but it's clear sitting in the bench will not help him hit a baseball. The way the Brewers are treating Gamel they may as well call up Escobar to play SS and 2B a few times a week...it'd really be the same thing. There is no way Bill Hall should ever start over Mat Gamel. That is flat out wrong and again...if Hall didn't make the big bucks it wouldn't happen. I get the feeling that Macha is the reason why this is happening. Hall should be the one backing Gamel up.

EDIT - Just so we're all clear about playing time...Mat has 11 plate appearances in the past 11 games (that's if my last quick search was right). That's not playing time...that's bench time.

[PeaveyFury]

How does that 'plan' have anything to do with Gamel?

 

Second line of his post:

 

First it was to platoon Lamb and Hall until Gamel proved himself in AAA

[TooLiveBrew]

I guess I don't see Gamel being anything special, so I'm not getting all excited about the situation.

 

I think this is the main reason why this conversation doesn't seem compelling to you, then.

 

 

Ultimately I think McGehee (and to a lesser extent Heether) have made Gamel's future at 3B very cloudy. If Gamel's going to stay in Brewer plans, he needs time in RF.

 

I don't think this is the case at all. The one whose future has been 'clouded' to me at this point is Rickie Weeks. The Brewers still don't have a more talented or better option at 3B than Gamel. And quite frankly I think it'd be a tragic mistake to move that bat off 3B. Now, if Gamel didn't show the ability to be a plus defender at 3B, I would feel differently... or if the organization had anyone even remotely close to Mat's talent at 3B.

[kramnoj]

I would have thought the Brewers would have waited until Gamel wouldn't have accumulated a year of ST before the year ends, but even NASA can make a math error, so I suppose someone could have miscounted (or didn't consider it). By my count, it does seem like it might be a year exactly at the end of the season.

[endaround]

Adam Heether has been tearing it up.

 

We need to pay attention to all ramifications. Since Heether isn't on the 40 man, it isn't likely that he will be the one called up. If Gamel goes down, it would be for Irribarren.

 

As far as service time goes, I thought it was said at the time that Gamel came up that he would end this year with less than one year of ST if he stayed up the rest of the way. Do we know whether that's correct or not?

 

I think its assumed that Joe Koshansky's 40 man spot is extremely tenuous. And Gamel was brought up a bit earlier than expected due to Weeks' injury so his service time will be really close if he stays up

[JJHardy7]

Second line of his post:

First it was to platoon Lamb and Hall until Gamel proved himself in AAA

What? There's no way you bank on Lamb and Hall and have that relate to Gamel. If that's the case, this franchise has no clue what they're doing. I support most of what the Brewers have done and continue to do, but if you're honestly telling me that Lamb and Hall could keep 3B warm for Gamel...I'm not buying that at all. I'm also in the minority that Weeks injury should've had little to do with Gamel. Gamel doesn't play 3B. The Brewers have a few guys that can move around...you don't call up a guy that plays one spot to help that out unless you play him there. It's an easy excuse. The Brewers 'plan' here has led to Lamb not making the team (not a shock) and Hall stinking (not a shock). How is that a plan? That plan never happened...the same reason why that plan failed is why Gamel should be starting everyday at 3B, play Casey at 2B, and use Counsell as the super utility guy. That'd be fine in my book. Just because you have a 'plan' doesn't mean it makes any sense...the way this has all gone down Mat should've never been called up. That's not a knock on him...it's just the fact that this whole situation was botched. 11 at-bats in 11 games. I just don't see how that helps out Mat at all or the Brewers. I'm not saying Mat has to start everyday...I am saying it's a pretty dumb idea to give him an at-bat a day for nearly the past two weeks.

I don't think this is the case at all. The one whose future has been 'clouded' to me at this point is Rickie Weeks. The Brewers still don't have a more talented or better option at 3B than Gamel. And quite frankly I think it'd be a tragic mistake to move that bat off 3B. Now, if Gamel didn't show the ability to be a plus defender at 3B, I would feel differently... or if the organization had anyone even remotely close to Mat's talent at 3B.

100% agreed. Gamel doesn't suck and he's not a slouch. I think some Brewers fans that don't follow minor league baseball are making a big mistake. Gamel is legit. He's not Braun, but IMO he's not a world a way from him. In other words, he's between Braun and Hardy IMO. Gamel has the range and the arm to be a pretty good defender. I do hope that he's getting a ton of extra work in Milwaukee like some claim here. There's no proof to that as far as I know. He was getting a ton of work in Nashville from what I saw. I do think the infield situation will be very interesting. 3B, SS and 2B are all up in the air next year in terms of who is playing there. I do think the organization will bite the bullet on Hall in the off-season. There is not a good reason why he's on the team if he's starting on a somewhat regular basis. I'm not one to bash on a player, but Hall just flat out isn't good enough to be playing on this team. I don't mind him being a bench option, but there's no way he should see regular time IMO. Starting Hall over Gamel would lead to a ton of Yost threads...Macha gets a pass from some strange reason.

[kramnoj]

I think its assumed that Joe Koshansky's 40 man spot is extremely tenuous.

 

If the Brewers make a move for a SP, they will need that spot (unless minor leaguers already on the 40 man are included). As it is, if Gamel is being sent down, it's because the troika of Casey, Counsell and Hall are playing at 2B and 3B. It wouldn't make much sense to bring up Heether over Irribarren to just sit on the bench.

[endaround]

@JJHardy7

 

By waiting until June they got Gamel for another year. Two months of a Lamb/Hall platoon vs two months of Gamel as a rookie is nothing. The reason Weeks' injury was important is because they wanted to fill in for his offense. They had no idea that Counsell would continue to hit or that McGehee would go against all prior history and hit like Chase Utley. Not sure how you can get upset about this.

 

@Kramnoj

 

I assume any pitching will force a DFA of Narveson since he is out of options. The reason to bring up Heether is that he can play 3B.

[TheCrew07]

If the Brewers make a move for pitching it's likely that at least 1 40 man roster player will go in the trade, thus they wouldn't need the 40 man to complete a trade. Koshankshy has no future role in Milwaukee, this is a no brainer, you ditch him, add and promote Heether, and bring Gamel back down.

[TooLiveBrew]

I'm not one to bash on a player, but Hall just flat out isn't good enough to be playing on this team. I don't mind him being a bench option, but there's no way he should see regular time IMO. Starting Hall over Gamel would lead to a ton of Yost threads...Macha gets a pass from some strange reason.

 

I think one reason he gets a pass is that people have been able to claim that Gamel is getting 'enough' playing time until very recently (even though that's not exactly the complaint most Gamel-proponents have been voicing).

 

Overall I've been very happy with Macha managing the pitching, and very disappointed with how he's handled the lineups, especially Gamel & 3B. Right now it's just painfully obvious to me that our infield should be Gamel--Hardy--McGehee--Fielder, with Counsell & Hall getting their ABs filling in at 2B/SS/3B. Imho Gamel would also fill the glaring weakness of a sustainable leadoff hitter.

[PeaveyFury]

I support most of what the Brewers have done and continue to do, but if you're honestly telling me that Lamb and Hall could keep 3B warm for Gamel...I'm not buying that at all.

 

Going into the offseason, it was quite feasible. Especially considering the well-publicized reports that Macha told Hall that the 3B job was his to lose, Hall seeing much better after Lasik, yada yada yada.

 

Also consider that a couple of years ago, a Graffanino/Counsell platoon was used to keep 3B warm for Ryan Braun. This situation was probably supposed to work the same way, with the problem that Casey McGehee has come out of no where to become a legit rookie of the year candidate. Otherwise, Gamel is probably starting at 3B every day and we're not having this conversation, much like endaround said.

 

the way this has all gone down Mat should've never been called up.

 

You're looking at the end result and saying that their plan was bad. Hindsight is 20/20. You're telling us that when Gamel was called up on May 14th, that the Brewers should have predicted that McGehee would be hitting .343 with a .963 OPS two months later heading into the All-Star Break, and that Counsell would be at .289 with a .768 OPS as well? Anyone would have been crazy to expect that.

[JJHardy7]

@ endaround

By waiting until June they got Gamel for another year. Two months of a Lamb/Hall platoon vs two months of Gamel as a rookie is nothing. The reason Weeks' injury was important is because they wanted to fill in for his offense. They had no idea that Counsell would continue to hit or that McGehee would go against all prior history and hit like Chase Utley. Not sure how you can get upset about this.

The actually called Gamel up in mid-May IIRC. I've never said they should or shouldn't have waited. I honestly don't care about that at all. The reason why one can be upset is because Counsell and McGehee are not the number one prospect in the organization. It's pretty simple really IMO. Keep those two at 2B if you want...they've done well this year. There's 3B...put Gamel there. If you realize you made a mistake, correct it. 11 at-bats in 11 games is flat out wrong for the number one hitting prospect in an organization and one of the best prospects in all of baseball. Counsell is probably playing his last year in baseball or maybe one more...he admits if he plays everyday the team won't do wel. McGehee is playing well, but Weeks is out. So 2B is wide open, correct? You also assume that Counsell will continue to hit at this rate all year and go against all of his career numbers? You're more a numbers guy than I am, but to me that's not going to happen. Also, this isn't Gamel vs. Counsell or McGehee to begin with. Why is Hall starting over Gamel? That's the main question IMO. If you want to bank on Counsell and McGehee all year, that's fine. I just wouldn't waste a #1 prospect on the bench, but that's just me. If he can't start in Milwaukee, send him to AAA. I'm not saying 'Gamel must start'. I think he should, but if he doesn't he should be in AAA. I am saying Gamel shouldn't be riding the bench. That makes zero sense. It's the reason why there should be a 'Fire Macha thread' or whatever garbage there was about Yost. Macha/Brewers have done an absolute terrible job with Gamel. Bring him up...play him once in awhile...and send him back down...why? Because 3B is so solid in Milwaukee that he can't start? Talk about ruining a player's confidence by not having a plan that makes any sense.

Why is Hall playing more than Gamel? Why is Gamel even in Milwaukee? Those questions don't have any answers. Macha is abusing our best young pitcher in an organization that lacks quality young pitchers at the high level of the minors and is misusing our best prospect...why does he get a pass?

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

He gets a pass because there was such a prejudice against Ned Yost by this board and by the overall Brewer fan base because he didn't make friends with the media and fans and was actually a darn good manager, but I've beaten that horse already and Macha is for sure getting a free pass that he won't be getting after his honeymoon period is over for the fan base.

[TooLiveBrew]

While Yost certainly isn't or wasn't a "darn good manager", I do think there's a good chance he would have given Gamel more consistent playing time. However, Yost was also one to stick with Hall through thick & thin, so who knows.

 

I also completely agree with you on the honeymoon period for Macha, TWR.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

We can differ on opinions as to how good of a manager Yost was, but I'm pretty sure Hall would have a firm spot on the bench right now under Ned Yost. He's seen enough of Hall and gives enough respect to prospects, which Macha isn't currently doing by the way, that Gamel would be playing every day at 3B, and I would argue that McGehee would be our every day 2B which is how most people think our infield should look. And I think in an organization like the Brewers that HAS to rely on prospects to win, Yost was a pretty good fit. You could argue that Macha had to play prospects in Oakland, but we all know who the real manager of that team was anyways. I'm still not sure why Beane doesn't just take over as GM and Manager of the A's. If you don't agree with that opinion, see Moneyball.

[endaround]

You do realize that with absolutely nothing to play for Yost benched Hardy during his rookie season right?

[kramnoj]

I assume any pitching will force a DFA of Narveson since he is out of options. The reason to bring up Heether is that he can play 3B.

 

I don't know why the assumption would be that Narveson would be DFAed. He's one of the few lefty relievers on the 40 man. I think it's more likely that Smith gets sent down.

 

As far as Heether's experience at 3B, I don't think that's compelling. Counsell, Casey and Hall can all play 3B, they don't need Irribarren to play there as well. It certainly could be Heether, he's been talked about and he's earned the right, I just think the most efficient use of roster space would be Irribarren, and since the person called up wouldn't be expected to get much PT, the peformance of the player isn't likely to be critical.

[LouisEly]

or if the organization had anyone even remotely close to Mat's talent at 3B.

 

I think that Taylor Green would like to be seen as "remotely close to Mat's talent". If he can stay off the DL.

 

No way Smith goes down - don't let the recency of the grand slam overshadow the body of work, as he has given up only 12 hits in 19 IP and only Hoffman, DiFelice, and Stetter have lower ERAs. While Narveson is a lefty, most hitters are RH so I'd rather have Smith. CV is actually more effective vs lefties (.635 OPS-A) than righties, so CV can face the lefties if Stetter isn't available.

[TooLiveBrew]

I think that Taylor Green would like to be seen as "remotely close to Mat's talent". If he can stay off the DL.

 

Very true. I was under the impression the long-term idea for Taylor was 2B, though I guess Lawrie was the reason for that change?