Gamel situation

[TheCrew07]

If you seriously believe that McGehee is a 4 win player on a yearly basis I guess that's a valid comparison. Gamel is an impact bat, he has the potential to bat over .300 every year and hit over 30 HRs a year through his prime years, not to mention he's LH. He's highly touted for good reason, he could be special.

 

I really don't see how he's best helping this team off of the bench, he hasn't hit well at all as a pinch hitter. If he's going to be with the team he should be starting in the field and getting his 3 ABs just about every game. If that's not his role, then send back him down to AAA now that he's got a taste and interleague is over. He's the 2nd LH option off the bench and his pinch hitting stats are abysmal, yes it's a small sample but that's all pinch hitting is a small sample. Mat didn't exactly thrive in the DH role either, but he's hit decent when he's actually played in the field. Heether gives more defensive flexibility off the bench and has been just as hot as Gamel was before his call-up. I realize he's RH and not on the 40 man, but I just don't see how Gamel is our best option for a bench spot. If an injury occurs they can always call him back up to play everyday.

 

Until they are committed to Mat playing everyday in the field, he shouldn't be in Milwaukee. Imagine if Hardy or Weeks constantly got bounced out of the lineup for inferior talent or the hot hand, how would people have felt about that situation? You either stick with a player and ride him out till he gets it going, you send him back down, or you trade him... you don't make your top prospect a bench option until he proves he's not an everyday player.

 

Gamel is:

15 for 54 for .278/.371/.481 which is a .852 OPS as a 3B

5 for 24 for .208/.296/.250 which is a .546 OPS as a DH

1 for 11 for .091/.286/.182 which is a .468 OPS as a PH

 

What's his best role and how does he best help this team from the bench? A defensive replacement? Ha! A pinch hitter? Not really. How is he the best possible option we can come up with for his current role?

 

edit. As for the pinch hitting scenario, say McGehee walked last night as K-Rod is prone to walking hitters... we're going to take our chances to score a run with Kendell who was on deck? I would have gone Gamel, McGehee, and then Cameron if it was necessary for the win. If you end the inning tied then you let McGehee catch or double switch in Rivera to move the pitcher spot in the order..

[endaround]

Of course thats is exactly what happened to Hardy when he was first brought up and its what happened to Weeks last year.

[Invader3K]

I have no doubt Gamel will be better than McGehee in the long term. But right now McGehee is performing better (at least at the plate) than Gamel is. You can finger point at Macha, Melvin, whoever, but McGehee had a very hot June, while Gamel has been fairly inconsistent (and yes, I realize that may partly be due to inconsitent ABs).

 

This isn't like 2004 where the team should just be playing the young guys all the time to get them playing experience at the MLB level. We are in the thick of the playoff hunt and Macha has to do everything he can to win. If that means sitting a rookie (no matter how "special") sometimes or pinch hitting for him, I don't see how anyone can fault him for it. Sorry to say, but Gamel's development as a player is a secondary priority to the needs of the team in regards to making the playoffs at this juncture.

[TheCrew07]

Of course thats is exactly what happened to Hardy when he was first brought up and its what happened to Weeks last year.

Hardy played in 124 games in 2005, more in the first half when he stunk than the second half when he was hitting very well, he had 6 PH appearances all season. Hall was actually playing well in 2005, and bounced between 3B, SS, 2B. I thought Yost did well getting all his young players ABs that season. In the first half of 2005 Hardy got 219 PAs in 67 games for a .187/.293/.267 line, it's very reasonable to say they rode him out.

 

Weeks came up for good in 2005, I'm not sure how hitting below expectations for 3 seasons is similar to Gamel's situation, he had over 1000 PAs in his career when he was sent back down to AAA in 2007 and had over 1300 by the time Durham was acquired. Gamel has 103 or 106 (depeding on which section of baseball-reference I'm looking at) and only a little over 60% of those PAs have come in games where he played in the field. Weeks only made 1 appearance as a DH in his entire career, again they rode him out and he's had a longer leash than most.

[TheCrew07]

I have no doubt Gamel will be better than McGehee in the long term. But right now McGehee is performing better (at least at the plate) than Gamel is. You can finger point at Macha, Melvin, whoever, but McGehee had a very hot June, while Gamel has been fairly inconsistent (and yes, I realize that may partly be due to inconsitent ABs).

 

This isn't like 2004 where the team should just be playing the young guys all the time to get them playing experience at the MLB level. We are in the thick of the playoff hunt and Macha has to do everything he can to win. If that means sitting a rookie (no matter how "special") sometimes or pinch hitting for him, I don't see how anyone can fault him for it. Sorry to say, but Gamel's development as a player is a secondary priority to the needs of the team in regards to making the playoffs at this juncture.

The point of this thread is about Gamel's role, not McGehee's hot streak. Gamel is not a bench player, he's not helping the team as a bench player, a very solid argument can be made he's not the best option for the bench at this juncture. What McGehee is doing irrelevent to the discussion, Hall is inferior offensively and continues to get ABs over Gamel as well. Either they give Mat consistent playing time or they don't, since they aren't and he's performing poorly in a limited role off of the bench (PH and DH) why not send him down for some consistent playing time and see if Heether is a better option off of the bench? How is Gamel riding the pine making the team better when he doesn't/hasn't performed in that role?

[Invader3K]

It's relevant because where else will you play him? Counsell and McGehee are both hitting around .300. Playing them both is what is best for the team right now. Since I don't think they're going to sit Hart and suddenly make Gamel a right fielder, I don't know what other options there are. Maybe they also figure Gamel is a better bench option than Heether (who I had never even really heard about until suddenly this season, which makes me rather pessimistic about his realistic potential contributions), or some other AAA call up.

[TheCrew07]

It's relevant because where else will you play him?

I've said it 4 times now, Nashville, he's not a bench player, he's not accustomed to the role.

[Invader3K]

And I have no problem with them sending him down to Nashville if that is what they decide to do. I'm not sure what better option there really is for the bench right now.

[monty57]

Pinch hitting McGehee for Gamel was absolutely the right decision in that situation, and given how Gamel had performed at the plate that day. I wish McGehee had been as highly touted as Gamel when he came to the Brewers. Maybe that would cut down on some of the criticism around here.

 

I'm glad McGehee is doing well, and I hope he can keep it up all year. I'm fine with the current situation of Counsell at 2B, McGehee at 3B vs. a righty and McGehee at 2B, Hall at 3B vs. a lefty. However, I am not fine with Gamel riding the bench while all of this happens. Send him down until he's needed. You will save service time so you get him one more year down the road (or save money in a long term deal) and you keep him playing full time.

 

I've said it 4 times now, Nashville, he's not a bench player, he's not accustomed to the role.

 

And it's not a role I want him getting accustomed to. That role is for "has been's" and "never will be's" like Counsell and Brad Nelson, not for someone you are basing much of your team's future on.

 

Maybe they also figure Gamel is a better bench option than Heether (who I had never even really heard about until suddenly this season, which makes me rather pessimistic about his realistic potential contributions), or some other AAA call up.

 

Adam Heether plays 2B / 3B

2009 Nashville .331 avg / .434 OBP / .558 Slg / .992 OPS

2008 Nashville .383 OBP / .446 SLG / .829 OPS

milb.com doesn't have stats beyond that other than to say he hit .299 in 2007 in Huntsville. I do remember he had a pretty good year for Beloit back when they were the Brewers' farm team.

 

However, he was selected in the 11th round of the 2003 draft. Late round selections have a hard time getting noticed, especially when players such as Fielder, Weeks, Hardy, Braun, etc are grabbing all of the headlines. He looks to be a decent player in a bad situation. Weeks and Braun were the 2B / 3B prospects ahead of him, and when Braun got moved to LF, Gamel was the heir-apparent at 3B.

 

This is a perfect case of someone who should be able to help the Brewers in a bench / utility role. He may never be a starter, and he's already 27, so "misusing" him won't be a worry and he could help out at multiple positions. Other than the fact that he's not on the 40 man roster, he would be a pretty good choice to take over Gamel's current role. As has been stated by others, Gamel is not producing as a bench player, he may not be the best starting option right now, and now that the Brewers have Cat & Gerut, another LH stick off the bench isn't that important.

 

If the Brewers aren't willing to make room for Heether on the 40-man, which would probably mean dumping Joe Koshansky (.211 avg / .316 OBP / .421 SLG / .737 OPS 1B), they could call up Hernan Iribarren, who isn't having a terrible year (.298 avg / .355 OBP / .397 SLG / .752 OPS) in Nashville.

 

On a side note, I hadn't realized how little wiggle room Melvin has on the 40-man. He's already put Weeks and Riske on the 60-day DL, and Koshansky is the only guy on the list that it wouldn't hurt too much to lose. This may make it hard to add Heether before July 31, as then any trade would have to include someone from the 40-man or we'd risk losing someone we don't want to lose.

[bklynbrewcrew]

The point I tried to make when I started this thread is that they need to make a choice about Gamel; either play him every day here or let him play every day in Nashville. Gamel is a big part of the teams future and they are doing both he and the team a disservice with this sporadic playing time. Most reports say he still needs work on his defense and sitting on the bench is no way to help his defensive development. It just makes no sense to have your number one prospect wasting precious service time in a pinch hitting role. Bench roles are meant for veterans or guys with little upside.

 

Its not like Gamel is going to be the difference in us making the playoffs as a pinch hitter. I am extremely disappointed in Melvin for letting Gamel rot on the bench. If they feel that McGehee and Counsell are better options (an opinion I strongly disagree about especially regarding Counsell) then let Gamel develop in AAA until Counsell goes into a funk. If Melvin feels that Gamel should play more then he needs to let Macha know this. Either way what they are doing now is wrong for both the team and for the career of Mat Gamel.

[kramnoj]

baseball-reference has minor league stats now, you can look at Heether's here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=heethe001ada

[TooLiveBrew]

Its time we sent Mat down to Nashville because Macha obviously doesnt realize how good he is.

...

I am extremely disappointed in Melvin for letting Gamel rot on the bench.

 

This basically sums up how I feel about this situation. Without question, it's been great to see McGehee's success so far this season. But as many have mentioned, this goes beyond McGehee. When Bill Hall is taking starts away from your top prospect (who is ready for MLB play), you have a huge problem. The first place to look is clearly Macha... but enough time has lapsed that I'm convinced this isn't a situation anymore in which we can say, 'Mahca will get him in there... give him some time'. Once that bridge has been crossed, the next logical place to look is at Melvin. How you can let a prospect like Gamel rot on the bench is just beyond me.

 

There have been posters concerned with this issue for a while now, and even as recently as a week ago, many dismissed these concerns by pointing to Gamel getting a majority of playing time, & stating that he was getting his ABs through pinch-hitting. Well, now the issue has come to a head, and I have to wonder if the same people still feel like this should be dismissed. This team has now messed with the development of its top prospect essentially because the manager would prefer to play Casey McGehee & Bill Hall.

 

Just so I type this out & know I'm not going insane... Mat Gamel is going to be sent down to Nashville because Ken Macha would rather play Casey McGehee & Bill Hall. That sucks to read.

[JohnBriggs12]

Macha did not give Hall a multi year contract nor did he force him out of CF by signing Cameron. Hall's owed $8.5 million next year. Until MA and Melvin decide to eat that contract, Hall's going to be on the team and Macha's smart not to bury anyone. Maybe he could give Hall starts at SS or 2B or back in CF, but it's to the club's benefit to get something for their investment.

[logan82]

The money on Hall is spent. Don't waste time letting him play if there is a better option. Don't compound the mistake by making another mistake.

[topper09er]

Gamel is looking worse and worse with this part time playing time. He looks very confused and is behind average fastballs a lot. Yesterday Pelfrey struck him out on the same inside fastball twice (I will say they were both very good pitches) but you would expect Gamel to have learned something from his first K and foul that 2nd off at least. Its like hes not up there looking fastball...or anything, he is just trying to react and he is late on everything. He needs a long stretch of full playing time so he can try to get into a grove and maybe Braun to tell him to start being cocky and aggressive up there. I would like to see Gamel at 3B and McGehee at 2B for the next 10+ games in a row regardless of pitching matchups.

[logan82]

Gamel was hitting well until he was taken out of the lineup early this week. His Obp is .340 even with limited playing time. Bat him leadoff.

[Fear The Chorizo]

If Gamel is on the major league roster, Bill Hall should not take playing time away from him unless Gamel needs a rest, even against a lefty starter.

 

Bill Hall is a sunk cost and it's no use to sink the development of a good prospect by playing Hall over Gamel. Hall's had the better part of 3 seasons to justify the contract he was signed to, and it's well beyond the point of the organization needing to move on.

 

I don't care what he makes and how nice a guy he is, at this point I wish they would just designate him for assignment and let him walk - even if that means paying money to a guy not on the team going forward. 8.5 million in 2010 is a tough pill to swallow for a small market team, though...to think what the Brewers could have gotten for Hall after the 2006 season in a trade (20/20 hindsight glasses officially on)

[JJHardy7]

And it's not a role I want him getting accustomed to. That role is for "has been's" and "never will be's" like Counsell and Brad Nelson, not for someone you are basing much of your team's future on.

 

What? I don't get this at all. So Gamel right now is at his peak level and playing everyday does him no good? That's flat out wrong. The entire point of him going to Nashville is so that he can play. I've stated numerous times that he is not getting regular playing time. When he starts, there's usually not a reason behind it. Again, he's hit both RHP and LHP before. I highly doubt there's any plan with Mat. Again, so since he doesn't get regular playing time and then you insert him you expect big results? Give him the everyday job at 3B or send him into the minors. For those that claim the Brewers job isn't to worry about Mat's long-term future, you're not seeing what's going on. We're wasting Mat's service time by having him on the bench. What's the point of that? He needs to improve his defense, but you can't also think he can sit on the bench and not have regular playing time and be hitting like an all-star. There's a lot of timing involved in hitting and him sitting on the bench is hurting his play both on defense and hitting. If he doesn't get regular playing time, send him to AAA to start everyday and then when you figure out how to play him call him back up and start him. That makes a lot more sense than wasting service time and not mess with a guy's swing.

[TheCrew07]

And it's not a role I want him getting accustomed to. That role is for "has been's" and "never will be's" like Counsell and Brad Nelson, not for someone you are basing much of your team's future on.

 

What? I don't get this at all. So Gamel right now is at his peak level and playing everyday does him no good? That's flat out wrong. The entire point of him going to Nashville is so that he can play. I've stated numerous times that he is not getting regular playing time. When he starts, there's usually not a reason behind it. Again, he's hit both RHP and LHP before. I highly doubt there's any plan with Mat. Again, so since he doesn't get regular playing time and then you insert him you expect big results? Give him the everyday job at 3B or send him into the minors. For those that claim the Brewers job isn't to worry about Mat's long-term future, you're not seeing what's going on. We're wasting Mat's service time by having him on the bench. What's the point of that? He needs to improve his defense, but you can't also think he can sit on the bench and not have regular playing time and be hitting like an all-star. There's a lot of timing involved in hitting and him sitting on the bench is hurting his play both on defense and hitting. If he doesn't get regular playing time, send him to AAA to start everyday and then when you figure out how to play him call him back up and start him. That makes a lot more sense than wasting service time and not mess with a guy's swing.

I think you read that backwards.. he was saying a bench role is a not a role he wants Gamel to get accustomed too. He agrees with you and with me.

[JJHardy7]

I probably did. I thought he was making a point he shouldn't be in Nashville. My bad.

[fondybrewfan]

He is not in the lineup again today, just send him down already. He isn't going to learn anything else up here sitting on the bench. He can learn to play 3rd just as well in AAA than in MLB.

 

Just send him down and bring Heether up. Heether probably doesn't have a prominent role in the Brewers future plans but the guy deserves a shot at least. Better to use service time on him than on Gamel.

[igor67]

I have switched over. It seemed like they were giving him a reasonable amount of playing time prior to this week, but the data now suggests a very haphazzard situation and highly irregular playing time instead of most starts and more frequent off-days/ partial platooning then you'd do with an established guy. So give a bench guy a shot at those ABs.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Once again Gamel is not starting. Letting him rot on the bench is one of the most inexcusable events of the Doug Melvin regime.

[naivin]

My hope is that they are just keeping him around until the impending roster move necessitated by a trade for a 2B/lead off man.

[southpaw121505]

Don't know what's going on here but I'm just as frustrated as everyone else. I see 2 options: Play him, daily in Milwaukee. Or play him daily in Nashville.