Gamel situation

[Postseason2006]

I for one am sick of seeing Bill Hall out there. 0 fer again tonight. Gamel not playing is almost as lost in the sauce as Yost was sticking Mench out time and time again.

[dadofandrew]

Counsell has simply been outstanding, offensively and defensively. He's a better choice than Gamel right now.

[DHonks]

Al, Counsell has been outstanding, but there's the fear that he's going to wear himself out. Gamel's increased production (hitting well lately, .350 OBP!) is reason to play at least 4-5 times per week. But Macha is finding any excuse possible to stick Hall in there.

[southpaw121505]

I don't really get this. Right now the Brewers are best off with Gamel at 3rd, McGehee at 2b, and Counsell starting 3 times per week between 2nd, 3rd, and SS. Yet everytime Gamel has a good game or two (like two walks batting leadoff the other day), he rides the pine for a few days in favor of Hall.

 

Macha's managing of Gamel has me yearning for the days of Yost.

I agree with this, and as good as Counsell has been, it makes me nervous to continue to rely on him and those old bones and that rickety knee.

[Invader3K]

I can see the justification for Hall being in there (lefty matchup, had a couple hits the night before). But another 0-fer night warrants a return to the bench, in my view.

 

Calls for Ned Yost are a bit much, though. Remember it took Ned Yost getting fired for an anemic Rickie Weeks to finally get benched. At least Gamel is getting playing time, while Ray Durham rode the pine pretty much after the Brewers acquired him.

[endaround]

Weeks in September last season:.283/.415/.528

 

Weeks actually shoudl have played more if possible. Unfortunately neither Durham nor Weeks coudl play anywhere else.

[Ennder]

In general a player should be benched about two months after fans start asking for him to be benched. The fan base in general is way too quick to cut bait on a player.

[monty57]

Casey McGehee is hitting far over his head. We should be thankful for what we've gotten but not surprised if he cools off substantially at any time.

 

So send Gamel down to get regular playing time until Casey cools off. Then bring him back up to play full time.

 

Gamel is likely to not be Braun or Fielder. To my eyes he's likely to be Hardy or Hart - a mid level contributor.

 

I'm not good at predicting how good a player will be, but he's been rated one of the top prospects in all of baseball by people who make a living rating players, so he could be something special. Besdies, Hardy and Hart have both been All Stars, so they're not really "mid-level contributors."

 

He'll turn 24 next month. As such it's likely his best years will be spent in Milwaukee, barring an early trade, regardless of exactly where his arby clock is at.

 

So we get him until he's 31 instead of 30 - that's one more year of him while he's in his prime.

 

Heether is a 27 year old career minor leaguer having a good year. I think it quite unlikely he'd contribute anything if called up now.

 

He is destroying AAA and has been a decent player throughout his minor league career. If we're talking about a bench player who will only get a limited amount of ABs, the difference between Heether and Gamel will likely be insignificant.

 

3B average 3 chances per game, 1 of which is a popup or line drive. Going to AAA for 2 ground balls a game isn't going to help much with the repetitions. With Willie working with him he's getting at least as good development work as he would in AAA.

 

Practice is extremely important, but it is still very important to get regular playing time in games. Those three chances occur at varying times, unlike drills, where the coach says "I'm going to hit a grounder to you... try to catch it."

 

I guess I dont' see what the fuss is about. Looking at the last month of games Gamel has been getting a fair amount of playing time in comparison with the other infielders. Just looking at a simple plate appearance total of ABs + BBs

 

Many of those ABs occurred when he was used as a DH in interleague play. As was discussed at the time, that's a hard role to learn, and is often filled by a veteran. Players the caliber of Paul Molitor hated converting to the DH role, as they didn't feel like they were a part of the game. Who knows if it will, but it could actually hurt him to be used in a DH / pinch hitter role, as his rhythm can get thrown off, leading to a hitting slump, leading to him pressing, leading to continued hitting problems, and so on.

 

I don't really care if Gamel plays on the Brewers or in AAA, but I think he should play. I agree that McGehee has earned the right to play every day, and Counsell is playing better then he has in years, so therefore Gamel should be sent down until there is a spot for him to play at the majors. If that's 2010, so be it.

 

McGehee is the story of the year as far as I'm concerned. He's gone from obscure waiver claim, to 25th man on roster, to occasional 2 hole platoon player, to everyday middle of the order hitter and he's done it the old fashioned way. He's earned it. This is a guy who had no value last October and now he's a starter for a 1st place team that still is 2 years from arbitration after this year.

 

Briggs, you're being modest. IIRC you're the one who touted McGehee all Spring Training, leading me to believe that he should be part of a starting 3B platoon from day one and Hall should be traded. It frustrated me to see him get absolutely no playing time for the first month, and I'm happy he's making the most of his chance (even though it only occurred due to Weeks' injury). We may have found someone who can help us at the Major League level for years to come.

 

I agree with those who question Macha's handling of young players. It seems he's a "prove it" kind of guy. What happened in the minors doesn't matter... he'll play a worthless guy with big league experience over a young player with more upside. With limited reference, we have Hall being christened the starter before ST began, meaning youngsters Gamel and McGehee didn't have a shot, no matter what they did. Nelson was given 21 pinch hit ABs (1 start) before he was thrown out (although Melvin may have been part of this), Swindle was given little PT when he was up, even though he was a 2nd lefty in the 'pen, Corporan was given one AB during Rivera's injury, Suppan was named opening day starter over Yo. I'm sure I'm missing some, but that's quite a bit of "veteran favoritism" over a few months. Macha's won a lot of games as a manager, and knows more about baseball than I ever will, but I do get frustrated watching mediocrity play while better players don't.

[NievesNoNO]

I can respect people's reasoning for wanting Gamel back in the minors if he's not getting a full time shot, but if he's our best option for that roster spot regardless of service time then I think he belongs on the roster. If we're a last place team with no shot then yes, I'd want him in the minors not accumulating service time. He is getting at least part time duty with the Brewers and is a valuable piece of the bench when not starting. He's been playing long enough that his skills aren't just going to magically evaporate by not playing every game. He's getting big leauge experience and that in my opinion will help him progress more than dominating triple A.

Monty I agree that Macha does seem to be a "prove it" guy. I guess with his resume it's hard not to back his philosophy. I think as the season progresses Gamel will be the starter at third. Maybe making the young guys "prove" they should start is part of how he gets the rest of the team to buy in to his decisions. Also, it's a lot harder for a veteran who could lose his job (i.e. Hall) to have much of a complaint if the younger/inexperienced guy legitimately shows he's better than him by outperforming him at the ML level, not just at AAA.

[MJLiverock]

I guess I dont' see what the fuss is about. Looking at the last month of games Gamel has been getting a fair amount of playing time in comparison with the other infielders. Just looking at a simple plate appearance total of ABs + BBs

 

Many of those ABs occurred when he was used as a DH in interleague play. As was discussed at the time, that's a hard role to learn, and is often filled by a veteran. Players the caliber of Paul Molitor hated converting to the DH role, as they didn't feel like they were a part of the game. Who knows if it will, but it could actually hurt him to be used in a DH / pinch hitter role, as his rhythm can get thrown off, leading to a hitting slump, leading to him pressing, leading to continued hitting problems, and so on.

 

I don't really care if Gamel plays on the Brewers or in AAA, but I think he should play. I agree that McGehee has earned the right to play every day, and Counsell is playing better then he has in years, so therefore Gamel should be sent down until there is a spot for him to play at the majors. If that's 2010, so be it.

 

Gamel is getting 2/3rds of the AB's of an everyday player, its not like he never plays. That is a pretty good amount for a rookie just called up, especially when he has questions about his defense. The coaches are probably working on his defense just as much as he would get in the minors. About 25% of his plate appearances since he was called up have been as a DH, I doubt it has stunted his growth at all to have 25 or so PA's and not play defense in a game. The interleague days are over and Hall continues to be terrible so Gamel's chances are only going to go up for playing time. I agree, Macha is taking a prove it mode with his defense and I see nothing wrong with that approach, the team still needs to win games. As Macha and the other coaches see Gamel's progress in infield practice they may well become more comfortable with him in late situations, giving him more playing time. But again he has been getting AB's, its not like he is buried on the bench like Gerut.

[FVBrewerFan]

Gamel is getting 2/3rds of the AB's of an everyday player, its not like he never plays.

He was when the DH was being used, it's been far less than 2/3 since.

[MJLiverock]

It's been 8 whole games since DH games stopped. Three of which were started by LHers (Liriano, Zito and Santana). Gamel started 2 games. He didn't play against RH Baker on Thursday and Gerut was the only PH used. He didn't play against Cain on Friday, probably wanted Counsell in the lineup vs. Cain figuring they needed D assuming a low scoring game and McGehee's hotness. No pinch hitters were used. Zito started Saturday, Gamel came in to PH. Sunday Gamel started at 3B. Monday, vs. Nieves is probably the one game I question his playing time, a RH pitcher, not an ace on the mound, but Gamel did PH. Last night was Santana.

 

He is getting his shots and they may increase as he proves to the coaching staff he can handle the defense and the team faces more RH pitching.

[naivin]

It is very difficult to argue against McGehee/Counsell getting AB's ahead of Gamel at the moment they way those two are hitting, but in th elast 7 days Gamel has 7 AB's, and bill Hall has 9. I have a much harder time with that.

[The Truth]

Well it is good to see Gamel starting today. Clearly, Macha wants to see Gamel hitting better before he gets more playing time. Which makes sense. This MLB, not little league, you don't get to play just because of your name or your potential.

[logan82]

Why are we still assuming McGehee will play better defense than Gamel? It seems similar to a Weeks vs Durham discussion. One guy has limited range and the other will make mistakes. The guy with limited range is playing on a bum knee no less.

 

 

Remember it took Ned Yost getting fired for an anemic Rickie Weeks to finally get benched.

 

Ned played them well. Sveum ran Durham into the ground by playing him every day. He should have stuck with the platoon Ned was using. Weeks put up pretty good numbers from July on. He was one of our best hitters in September.

[Godspeed]

It is very difficult to argue against McGehee/Counsell getting AB's ahead of Gamel at the moment they way those two are hitting, but in the last 7 days Gamel has 7 AB's, and bill Hall has 9. I have a much harder time with that.

That's assuming the Counsell/McGehee honeymoon will last forever, which it assuredly won't. Counsell will fall of the cliff at any moment, like he has for the entirety of his career. He's not all of the sudden going to be an adequate full-time starter at age 39.

[jeffy]

It is very difficult to argue against McGehee/Counsell getting AB's ahead of Gamel at the moment they way those two are hitting, but in th elast 7 days Gamel has 7 AB's, and bill Hall has 9. I have a much harder time with that.

 

PA's would be a better indicator of how much each has been used, Gamel has walked 3 times in those 7 days, so he actually has 10 PA's to Hall's 9.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Macha clearly has no confidence in Gamel. He let Kendall the automatic out hit in the 8th down 1-0 but he pinch hits for Gamel in the ninth. Its time we sent Mat down to Nashville because Macha obviously doesnt realize how good he is.

[AdvantageSchneider]

I don't understand why he pinch hit for Gamel in the 9th. Can anyone explain why you would rather have the RH batter Casey facing the righthanded closer vs. the lefty hitting Gamel vs. the righthanded closer. Rodriguez has a reverse platoon split this year but over his career lefties have hit him better, although he's been pretty good against both obviously.

[monty57]

Yeah, pinch hitting for your "top hitting prospect" with a RH hitter when a righty was on the mound was pretty telling as to how much faith Macha has in Gamel right now. Taking him out for defense is one thing, but pinch hitting for him in that situation doesn't exude confidence.

 

The Kendall saga is a diffenet story all together. Personally, I think he's into hypnosis or voodoo. That would be the only reasoning I can think of that managers refuse to take him off the field.

[jjfanec]

I don't understand why he pinch hit for Gamel in the 9th. Can anyone explain why you would rather have the RH batter Casey facing the righthanded closer vs. the lefty hitting Gamel vs. the righthanded closer. Rodriguez has a reverse platoon split this year but over his career lefties have hit him better, although he's been pretty good against both obviously.

Gamel had a rough day at the plate striking out looking twice and his hit was an infield single. Casey is swinging a much better bat right now and that is why you go with him. I really like Gamel but I would like to see him get sent down. Boy do I wish Adam Heether was left handed but I would still like to see him get called up to replace Mat. With Casey getting a good amount of starts against righties anyway and Counsell already there maybe we do not need Gamel's left-handed bat as much now. I think Frank Cat is now going to be the first lefty to pinch hit

[The Truth]

I don't understand why he pinch hit for Gamel in the 9th. Can anyone explain why you would rather have the RH batter Casey facing the righthanded closer vs. the lefty hitting Gamel vs. the righthanded closer. Rodriguez has a reverse platoon split this year but over his career lefties have hit him better, although he's been pretty good against both obviously.

So far, Macha seems to be really big on the small sample (extreme example is when he started Hall vs a right-hander because Hall was 6 for 8 against him in his career or something like that). He loves going with "who is hot", whether that be someone who is hot for a week or a month or in spring training. Thus he wanted to get Casey up at the plate in a clutch situation. Not saying I agree with the decision.

 

The positive, flip-side of that equation is we no longer have a manager who will stubbornly stick with "their guy". Seriously, how long did it take for Yost to figure out he should platoon Jenkins?

[logan82]

The Truth wrote:

The positive, flip-side of that equation is we no longer have a manager who will stubbornly stick with "their guy". Seriously, how long did it take for Yost to figure out he should platoon Jenkins?

Macha seems to be doing much the same thing Yost did if you look at how he is using Hall and McGehee. Different manager many of the same mistakes.

[Invader3K]

Pinch hitting McGehee for Gamel was absolutely the right decision in that situation, and given how Gamel had performed at the plate that day.

 

I wish McGehee had been as highly touted as Gamel when he came to the Brewers. Maybe that would cut down on some of the criticism around here.

[mkm13]

Gamel needs consistent PT. He has proven to be a very streaky hitter. Streaky hitters need consistent PT to keep their timing down. He is not successful in the role that Macha is trying to make him play so send him down and bring someone else up where you are not wasting his service time. Heether can't be any worse than Gamel for the way Macha is trying to use him.