Gamel situation

[TooLiveBrew]

Gamel needs full-time work every bit as much for his defense as his offense. If he's going to be wasted away on the bench, he should have been in AAA already. I have to agree that the spotlight shines on Melvin here. If your manager won't play him & you're instructing him to play Gamel, that's not good... and if you don't care whether or not your best prospect bat is getting full-time pt, that's also not too good.

[The Truth]

I think the plan was to play him alot more at 3B but Casey is forcing Macha's hand. Thats the way it is, this is the big leagues and the bat plays.

 

Evidently Melvin feels that having Gamel on the MLB roster, even with limited playing time, is more valuable than the savings in terms of service time would be. The season is close to half-way over, I agree with Al (great blog by the way, Al's Ramblings, been reading it for years) they need the best talent on the roster right now...

[Jay Zahn]

I have to disagree with most here who think Gamel should be sent out.

 

Gamel is contributing to the team. He's playing okay. Not great, not horrible, but he's playing okay.

 

We are in a pennant race, and it's late June.

 

We've had a hard time coming up with contributing bench players - why be in a rush to get rid of one?

 

Casey McGehee is hitting far over his head. We should be thankful for what we've gotten but not surprised if he cools off substantially at any time.

 

Gamel is likely to not be Braun or Fielder. To my eyes he's likely to be Hardy or Hart - a mid level contributor. He'll turn 24 next month. As such it's likely his best years will be spent in Milwaukee, barring an early trade, regardless of exactly where his arby clock is at.

 

Heether is a 27 year old career minor leaguer having a good year. I think it quite unlikely he'd contribute anything if called up now.

[Godspeed]

It's the big leagues, you play whoever gives you the best chance to win (if you're a contender). Most games, right now at least, I'd go with Craig and Casey, and Macha seems to agree. You can make an argument they should send him to AAA and have another lefty bat on the bench, but I'm not sure why anyone thinks Gamel is a better option than either incumbent.

Because expecting an overworked, soon to be 39-year-old Craig Counsell to continue hitting at these rates is pretty short sighted. ZIPs pegs him at a .681 OPS for the remainder of the season. Seeing that he's put up a .589 OPS in the second half of the last 3 seasons (a -.100 decline from his first half OPS over the same time period), that .681 figure seems generous.

 

Gamel is a more than viable option from here on out offensively. Defensively, how much better is McGehee at 3B than Gamel? Anectodally based on this past game, not much. If his bat needs to be in the line-up, it can be at 2B.

[UeckerAddict]

I don't see it as a stretch to think that because the Brewers plan on Gamel being an every day player in 2010, they actually see a greater benefit in having Mat play in front of 40,000 fans this year in order to get ready. The mere atmosphere of the majors- the fans, the ballparks, ESPN highlights- makes the majors a different beast than AAA.

 

He not only gets to learn from Randolph and Sveum, but also Counsell, JJ, and the basic day-to-day routines of the majors. Coming to the majors and starting right away did not seem to work for JJ and Rickie (Braun was a freak of nature). I think the experience of being on a big league club can mean more than a few more reps in front of 2,000 fans in Round Rock.

[bklynbrewcrew]

They are stunting Gamel's development by sitting him on the bench. The only way his defense will improve is by playing and its clear by now that Macha doesnt want to play him. Having Gamel on the team in a pinch hitting role is incredibly shortsighted and I really would expect better from Melvin.

[mkm13]

I have said this many times, but Gamel should either be sent down or start every day up here (maybe a day off a week). Why waste his cheap years with us as a bench player? It is tough enough making the jump from AAA to the majors. It is even tougher making it when you are a part timer and see limited pitches and are not able to keep your timing. This is not helping him and he is not helping the team being put in this situation.

[FVBrewerFan]

If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would say it looks like a trade is being worked out in the near future, and that's why Gamel is here. Could involve Hardy or Counsell.

[Thurston Fluff]

If you can prove that players get individual instruction in the minors I would love to be proven wrong. The lack of individual instruction was why the roving instructors originally came into being.

 

What type of proof do you need? The minors are for development. I don't think the AAA coaches are working diligently making sure a 32 year old roster filler is getting his time with the coaches while leaving the 22 year old highly touted prospect sitting in the dugout wondering when they coach will notice him. I guess the only real evidence I have is seeing the coaches working with players here in Appleton. Back in the 90's I knew a few of the T-rats employees so I got to go there and watch the team during the day a few times. There was certainly plenty of instruction going on then. Including fielding drills. I don't think it has changed.

 

I can tell you this, the Green Bay Bullfrog players don't work on defense much at all, they took batting practice and that was about it. I realize the coaches don't have anything invested in the players for college summer league baseball, but the lifestyle is similar and gives the kids an idea of what they can expect if they get drafted.

 

I guess that's why the bullfrogs wouldn't come close to the lowest level of pro ball players. I kind of think there is a difference between the northwoods league and professional baseball. I also know the UW Oshkosh baseball team spends plenty of time working on defense. They also have had several players drafted. Several of which are or have been in the big leagues.

[JJHardy7]

I think there is a plan for Mat, I just don't like the plan. The plan is for him to spot-start twice per week and be a LH pinch hit bat. It serves it's purpose, but not the best option IMO. We'll just have to disagree that the coaching is better at Milwaukee than Nashville. Don Money has so many managing responsibilities as do the other coaches like TheCrew07 mentioned. Small sample size surely, but I think the time Randolph and Sveum have spent with him on a daily basis has paid off.

 

I'm not saying it's a slam dunk either way. There are just a lot less obligations playing in Nashville than there are for Milwaukee (or any other big league team). Once you go to a game (not sure if you have) it'd make more sense. There might be (and I say might be) a handful of people asking for autographs or pictures. Money is busy being a manager, but let's remember the goal in the minors isn't to win every game. He also worked with Mat last year so there's a bit of a relationship there. Mat has also made some nice strides working with Money. We can agree to disagree on that, but I do think any amount of practice isn't going to be ideal if he's not putting that to use at all in real game action.

 

The time spent may have paid off, but until Mat is playing almost everyday we really don't know. I know Casey is hot right now, but Casey can also play a few different positions. I get the feeling Macha isn't really fond of Mat/doesn't like to play rookies. I have nothing to back that up, but a team that relies heavily on prospects and such should have a better plan than this. We could debate what is best for Mat, but I think it's clear in the ideal world he plays everyday (MLB or AAA) and we don't waste his service time with him sitting on the bench. How is this helping his development as a hitter? I hate to say it, but I think Mat is likely taking steps backwards as a whole instead of forward and that's not Mat's fault.

[TheCrew07]

If you can prove that players get individual instruction in the minors I would love to be proven wrong. The lack of individual instruction was why the roving instructors originally came into being.

 

What type of proof do you need? The minors are for development. I don't think the AAA coaches are working diligently making sure a 32 year old roster filler is getting his time with the coaches while leaving the 22 year old highly touted prospect sitting in the dugout wondering when they coach will notice him. I guess the only real evidence I have is seeing the coaches working with players here in Appleton. Back in the 90's I knew a few of the T-rats employees so I got to go there and watch the team during the day a few times. There was certainly plenty of instruction going on then. Including fielding drills. I don't think it has changed.

How about something other than, "The minors are for development", which we already know. Name 1, just 1 prospect that's made significant defensive strides each step in the minors in the last 10 years? I think you severely overestimate the amount of 1 on 1 time that's possible in the minor leagues. Again, roving instructors came about to get the players individual instruction, but if each roving instructor only spends a week at a time with each team, how much time are the players really getting? We discussed this at length in a different thread coming into the season. I'm very interested to hear what happens in the lower minors from someone who's experienced it because from the outside looking in, and from comments players have made like Salome, their focus is almost entirely on their bats. The only players the system has developed that are good defensive players were naturals, they were already good defenders when they were drafted/signed.

 

I'm not sure how college is relevant to the dicussion, the travel schedules are about as dissimilar as can be, the travel schedule of the Northwoods League is much similar to that of the Minor Leagues which is why I orginally pointed to the Bull Frogs as I have first hand knowledge about their lifestyles..

 

Gamel didn't get significant coaching until AA, Weeks never did, Fielder was horrible when he came up, Braun was horrible, Hart never had a home in the minors till he was an OF, Hall was a suspect defender when he came up. The evidence contrary to your opinion is pretty overwhelming in my opinion.

[JJHardy7]

If you can prove that players get individual instruction in the minors I would love to be proven wrong.

 

From what I've seen, they do receive individual instruction in the minors, but I don't think it's as early as you or I would like. I know guys get extra time in Nashville and I think they do in Huntsville, but I don't know as much about that. I think that's a little too late to be honest. I also think it's really up to the manager on the team to put in the work. I believe Money and Gamel have a pretty strong relationship and I think Money would be willing to put in extra time and the same with Mat. Bosio seems like a similar guy in that manner too. It's not ideal if you have a manager that's not willing to put in extra time. I'd love to see the Brewers hire more guys at the lower levels, but I guess that's a different topic all together.

[bklynbrewcrew]

I think its time Melvin steps in and has a little talk with Macha; he needs to tell Macha in no uncertain terms that Mat will play every day. If Melvin doesnt feel this way he should just send Mat down to AAA where he can continue to develop offensively and especially defensively. Pinch hitting is a waste of time for both Mat and the team.

[MJLiverock]

I guess I dont' see what the fuss is about. Looking at the last month of games Gamel has been getting a fair amount of playing time in comparison with the other infielders. Just looking at a simple plate appearance total of ABs + BBs (I use BA instead of OBP because my fantasy league has that setting for one month stats along with OPS)

 

Hardy 109 PA's .222 AvG. .621 OPS

Counsell 86 PA's .260 AVG. .785 OPS

McGehee 80 PA's .389 AVG. 1.158 OPS

Gamel 74 PA's .266 AVG. .747 OPS

Hall 47 PA's .159 AVG. .441 OPS

 

 

McGehee has been on fire, making it difficult to sit him and Counsell has been getting the nod at 2nd base but Gamel has still gotten 68% of the plate appearance of Hardy who plays everyday. I would expect Gamel to hold or even increase a little as Counsell may get some time off setting up McGehee at 2nd and Gamel at third a bit more often. As good as Counsell has been this year and for all the criticism Gamel has taken from some quarters, Gamel has pretty much matched his production over the last month. Bill Hall has continued drifting into oblivion except versus LH pitchers and late in game for defense or double switches.

[whizkid]

3B average 3 chances per game, 1 of which is a popup or line drive. Going to AAA for 2 ground balls a game isn't going to help much with the repetitions. With Willie working with him he's getting at least as good development work as he would in AAA.

 

Mat is a very good prospect and hitter. He's not some fragile flower that's going to be ruined because he's not playing full time right now. I don't think there have been many prospects of Mat's quality that have been 'ruined' due to mishandling. That's something to worry about with guys like Ben Hendrickson and Dennis Sarfate. Even then, those guys just weren't good enough to become what they thought they could be in their minds with just the right handling.

 

Mat's a good bat off the bench for a contender, starting against righties when the Brewers don't have a groundball pitcher starting. The part time play has probably affected his at bats so far, but no way is it ruining him forever. His full time will come. Contenders just don't worry about service time as much.

[joepepsi]

He has started 4 of the last 9 games at 3B. He's pinch hit in 3 of the other games. He is getting regular playing time. There is nothing wrong with bringing a young player along in this fashion. Especially one who isn't exactly setting the world on fire with his bat.

 

I doubt he will start against Santana tonight, but will probably be out there against Pelfrey on Wednesday.

[Invader3K]

I guess I still think some people are overreacting a bit here. Gamel is not being "stunted" being on the MLB team right now. I would even say I doubt there was really that much more he could have learned staying in AAA. He has shown his defense to be adequate already, which was the major concern people had. He can still take infield practice and such before the games. Macha has been playing him a fair amount for a rookie. I would not be surprised to see his playing time gradually increase throughout the season. For all we know, that could be the Brewers' plan for him.

 

The bottom line is that the Brewers are going to do what gives them the best chance to make the playoffs this season. Right now with how hot Counsell and McGehee have been, playing them more often than Gamel makes the most sense. They obviously feel Gamel still has a lot of value to the team this season as a part time/bench player, hence why he is staying up with the team.

 

Also, I can't fathom a GM dictating to the manager of a first place team who he should and shouldn't be playing. Mat Gamel is not the most important person in this organization right now, and Melvin's priority shouldn't be telling his manager that he needs to play one rookie, regardless of the other players who may or may not be performing better at this point. This idea that Macha somehow "dislikes" Gamel is also completely baseless, in my opinion. There's just no evidence to suggest it.

[Thurston Fluff]

How about something other than, "The minors are for development"

 

I guess you missed the whole part of my watching t-rat players going through drills with coaches.

 

Name 1, just 1 prospect that's made significant defensive strides each step in the minors in the last 10 years?

 

That is a loaded question. How would I or anyone who hasn't seen them at every stop be able to do that? But if you wish I can tell you how much one player improved from his time in A ball the the majors. I didn't see him at every level though. Prince at A ball in with Beloit was bad to the point that I wondered if he should be traded for someone who could actually catch a ball. It appeared like his feet were stuck in one spot when balls were hit his way. Hardly ever moved his feet when a ball was hit about two feet away. Still got that impression in my head years later. Much worse than when I next saw him in the majors. So there is one who did improve.

From your comments I can't help but think you are suggesting there is no defensive instruction going on in the minors. That just doesn't make any sense. I think you will be hard pressed to find anyone who agrees with you. I also don't think anyone will agree with you that they do not work on defense in the minors. They don't start working on defense at the major league level.

[TheCrew07]

Again running all IF through drills or all outfielders through drills is much different than isolating areas that need vast improvement and providing individual instruction to specific players on a daily basis. Of course they are doing their best to work on defense, but it's really up to the prospect to take it seriously enough to improve. There isn't time with only 3 (and I'm not sure how valuable the pitching coach is in this sense) coaches to regularly pull a player aside and work on fielding instruction, they are just trying to get to each player as many generic reps as possible. There's still value in that work, but players that aren't getting better on their own will need more attention, especially players with MLB hitting tools... like the list of players that I provided. The Brewers draft athleticism and power and have been very successful doing so, but they need to develop the defensive side of the game better than they have been.

 

It doesn't make sense to continue to bring up inept defenders and try to straighten them out at the big league level, but this is morphing into an exact copy of the discussion from earlier in the year which I will link to when I get home.

 

Prince is still a bad 1B, though not as horrid as he was last year, and you've basically made my point for me if he's your one example. However he was still stretching too early and stepping out with the wrong foot on occasion as a rookie in MLB, that's basic stuff that I've seen little league 1B do properly.

 

It takes thousands of perfect repetitions to relearn a movement or create new instincts if you prefer... going through the motions in team drills isn't going to get a player there...

[Invader3K]

I really doubt there is no minor league defense instruction. I don't think anyone was really saying that either. I think it comes down to that some people think Gamel can develope just fine with his current track at the Major League level, while others think it would be better for him long term to be down in the minors. I'm of the opinion that there probably wasn't that much more he could realistically learn at AAA. Many guys don't spend much time at AAA before getting called up, and I don't see why Gamel can't fit in that category.

 

I do also agree with others who feel a trade may be in the works, and Melvin wants Gamel around getting as much time as possible with the Brewers before he either has to become an everyday player or gets traded for something big in return.

[JohnBriggs12]

I don't understand the fuss either. I expected Counsell to cool off long ago, but the guy keeps getting on base ahead of the big boys. It's clear his new stance has made him a better hitter. Apparently sitting against lefties is giving Counsell enough rest at least for now. Eventually, I'd like to see more of McGehee at 2nd and Gamel at 3rd but until Counsell cools and Gamel has some 3 hit games, it's not going to happen.

 

McGehee is the story of the year as far as I'm concerned. He's gone from obscure waiver claim, to 25th man on roster, to occasional 2 hole platoon player, to everyday middle of the order hitter and he's done it the old fashioned way. He's earned it. This is a guy who had no value last October and now he's a starter for a 1st place team that still is 2 years from arbitration after this year.

 

Gamel is getting competition. Heck even Bill Hall has 3 hits in his last 3 AB's. The competition for playing time is a good thing. None of those guys should feel they are owed anything.

 

This season and this team don't exist for the benefit of Mat Gamel's development. They are in it to win it. Gamel's getting some opportunities. He has to do something with them.

[PrinceEatMeat]

http://brewersbeat.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/06/would_gamel_be_better_off_at_t.html

 

A bit of an update here. Looks like Gamel could go down after the Cubs series.

[lcbj68c]

The end of the blog says something to the effect of, "If he stays in the Majors (and doesn't get the normal playing time), the Brewers would consider sending him to the Fall League or Winter League (to get some more reps missed from not having regular playing time all Summer/Fall).

 

Now that doesn't make sense. If this guy is penciled into a start for 2010, why risk the injury, etc getting him reps in the Winter. Let the man rest and rejuvenate and be ready for spring training.. no?

[thablingster]

The only reason they probably would keep Gamel around is because other than Hall he is really the only guy on the bench with any semblance of power.

 

I am sure they wish at this point they hadn't given up on Nelson so quickly considering the lackluster play (granted in limited AB's) by Gerut, and the fact Counsell and McGehee are forced into every day starting roles due to the struggles of Hall and injury to Weeks. I'm guessing if they do send Gamel down it will be because we traded for an infielder or bench bat to take his spot.

[DHonks]

I don't really get this. Right now the Brewers are best off with Gamel at 3rd, McGehee at 2b, and Counsell starting 3 times per week between 2nd, 3rd, and SS. Yet everytime Gamel has a good game or two (like two walks batting leadoff the other day), he rides the pine for a few days in favor of Hall.

 

Macha's managing of Gamel has me yearning for the days of Yost.