Hardy or Hall

[Hammer715]

What has Hardy done to "lock" up the SS position for the brewers? I believe that having a power hitting SS is a bonus rather than moving him to a power outfield position where he would be considered by some as average. Once JJ proves that he is healthy I would suggest that we make him available for trades and move Hall to the SS postion where he truly will excel.

[Brian the Automator]

[ What has Hardy done to "lock" up the SS position for the brewers? I believe that having a power hitting SS is a bonus rather than moving him to a power outfield position where he would be considered by some as average. Once JJ proves that he is healthy I would suggest that we make him available for trades and move Hall to the SS postion where he truly will excel. ]

 

The whole offense per position thing certainly makes sense when you can fill the lesser of the two defensive holes with a cheaper player. However, the Brewers have a hole in CF (not really a power outfield position), and that's probably where Hall will end up.

 

Hardy still has a ton of upside, as we saw in the 2nd half of 2005. Unless the Brewers had a logjam, I wouldn't advocate trading Hardy, especially when his value is low right now coming off injury.

[Hammer715]

Good points, but I guess I was looking at the next step as well. If we were able to play Hall at SS that would allow us to get a legitimate CF that can lead off and give us the speed that DM is looking for.

[yfinn6]

Who do you propose that we get at CF that can also lead off? Basically no one on the FA market and anyone else could cost an arm and a leg. Just curious as to who you were thinking about.

[Brian the Automator]

[ If we were able to play Hall at SS that would allow us to get a legitimate CF that can lead off and give us the speed that DM is looking for. ]

 

I don't think he'll "forget" how to play SS or anything... If it turns out that there's a great CF via trade, via FA, or via the farm, I'm sure Hall would get the starting nod over Hardy at this point. But for now, we have the luxury of finding out whether JJ's going to stick or not.

[JohnBriggs12]

Hammer715, welcome aboard.

 

The sentiments you expressed on the Hardy/Hall situation are shared by many of us and discussed here quite extensively.

 

Melvin's rationale that Hall has to play somewhere regularly and because of his versatility and ability to hit, he fits into an OF role seem reasonable on the surface.

 

But some of us suspect that it's economically driven. Hall as an OF is closer to average, (re cheaper) than he is as a shortstop. I think that's part of it but it goes deeper. As good as Hall has become, he's never been one of the "chosen ones". By that I mean he's not been part of the group designated ever since their arrival in the Brewer organization as guys who will lead the Brewers to the promised land. In that elite group are Fielder, Weeks and Hardy, all of whom had positions cleared for them as will Braun when the time comes. Hart has alternated somewhat in and out of that group also (currently, he's in). But Hall was an afterthought relic from a prior regime who made himself into a fine player rather unexpectedly. His versatility was born out more of necessity than anything else just to keep a job. But now it's being used to move him from his natural position and possibly hinder his earning potential.

 

As great a job as he did at shortstop in 06, it was not enough to unseat Hardy in Melvin's mind.

 

None of this is to say I don't like Hardy et al, just that I perceive a class system at work in the organization. It explains why some guys like Hall and to an extent now Villanueva, who come up with little fanfare but perform well seem to have so much trouble convincing management that they can be counted on.

[brewcrew44]

Although it would be nice to eventually sign a speedy CF with Hall at short, I would not like to see Hardy just not given a chance after he showed his potential in 05. He is superb defensively and showed improvement with the bat. Also if we did stick Hall at short at the beginning of the year without signing/trading a CF, I'm not a big fan of a Jenkins/Mench, Gross/Clark, Hart OF. Much more comfortable with Hall, Hart, and then the rest to fight for the last spot.

[brewtank34]

Hardy, Vargas and a first rounder for Crawford or Baldelli (forgive me if i spelled that wrong)

[brettac1]

You can't trade draft picks in baseball.

 

And Hardy and Vargas isn't really a place to start when going after players that good (particularly Crawford).

[pogokat]

Quote:

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I think that's part of it but it goes deeper. As good as Hall has become, he's never been one of the "chosen ones". By that I mean he's not been part of the group designated ever since their arrival in the Brewer organization as guys who will lead the Brewers to the promised land.

---

 

nice conspiracy theory...but the main reason the brewers werent counting on hall was that he absolutely sucked in 2002...2003...and 2004...

 

 

those things do affect peoples perceptions...

 

hall is ready now...but he was never the prospect any of those other guys were...his only "good" numbers in the minors were in 2001 in high desert---which makes pre humidifier coors look like comerica..

 

hall's in CF because he can play there better than the other options..

[1992casey]

Back when we had the Hardy vs. Hall debates, one issue, as pogokat said, was that Billy stunk until 2005. The other was the three year age difference between the two players.

 

When Billy's excellent performance level continued into 2006, it was clear that he deserved an everyday spot in the lineup. At that point, the issue ceased being Hardy vs. Hall. It became Hardy vs. one of the outfielders.

 

The Brewers have decided to let J.J. bump an outfielder. I see two ways the Brewers may be looking at Hardy.

1. They might feel that this year, his hitting plus defense will contribute more than the hitting plus defense of an outfield option.

2. They may feel he's still young and should be given every opportunity to reach his potential.

I'd say it's probably a combination of both.

[Ennder]

Hardy is a better defensive SS. Hall is more athletic so can play CF where I don't believe Hardy could. Both of them have more potential than our 3rd OF slots do or any FA currently on the market.

 

I really fail to see the problem. I think people really underestimate Hardy in general because of the bad start to his career with the slow 1st half of 2005 and the injuries. I don't want to just give up on the guy when he's a very fluid SS who would still be valuable even if he never posted over a .750 OPS and I think he has the potential to sit around an .800 OPS in the future.

[sbrylski]

Ennder = sbrylski06

 

I've agreed 100% with every post you've made over the last two weeks.

[homer]

Quote:

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Hall as an OF is closer to average

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If Hall played CF exclusively last year he would have had the 2nd highest OPS in the NL. If he had played any outfield position, he would have had the 5th highest OPS amongst any outfielder in the NL (if you include the AL he's still top ten).

 

He's well above average whether he plays SS or OF - especially if they stick him in center field.

[Hammer715]

Where is Hardy in all of that? No doubt he has the potential to be very good (border line great), but will it happen is the question. The point I was trying to make and I do apologize if this was discussed earlier was Hall is a better option at short than center. If you had Hall, where would be the fist place you would play him, center field or SS. I would bet it is SS for you as well. Would Hall work in center of course but would he be better at SS, so with that if we could upgrade SS with Hall and upgrade CF with a better player (TBD) if would make the Brewers a better team overall. Hardy may be a better defensive player but he cant make nearly the plays that Hall can. We all saw what we can do last year, I would like to think that it is just a start.

[UWRyan428]

Hardy also has the added bonus that he is adverse to the K. Bill Hall, on the other hand, should spell his name with K, given that they are synonymous. Now I'm not hating on Hall, as I see him as the Brewer with the most trade value (Sorry Ben, Prince, and Rickie, but I would never trade any of the three). And while I wouldn't argue that Hall has less range than Hardy, I would argue that, as many have opined, "Hardy makes every routine play." Not so much with Hall, who tends to need the spectacular to make the routine.

[brewcrew44]

If we had just Hall and no Hardy obviously i would put him at short. But thats not our situation. Since we have a young and talented JJ Hardy with extreme potential we have to sacrifice with putting Hall at center, which really isnt a bad thing at all. I really dont think its a situation of on of the other, its definetly both.

[BillScottCanRake]

Would Hall work in center of course but would he be better at SS, so with that if we could upgrade SS with Hall and upgrade CF with a better player (TBD)

 

That TBD part is the catch. Who knows what it would cost in terms of talent or money it would cost to acquire a CFer? Maybe getting someone to play CF and leaving Hall at SS might have made those positions better, but the cost might have been not acquiring Estrada and Suppan, plus some other guys if TBD had to be acquired in a trade. Depdending on who TBD turned out to be, it could be argued the team is better with the addition of Suppan and Estrada than it would be with that other guy.

 

Unless a CFer fell into Melvinâ??s lap, I think he decided the team would be better of with Hall and Hardy in the lineup together instead of something like Hall and Clark, or Hall and Clark/Gross. Hall is the better choice to move, not because of how he plays SS, but rather his overall athleticism makes him a better choice to move to CF.

[sbrylski]

That TBD part is the catch. Who knows what it would cost in terms of talent or money it would cost to acquire a CFer?

 

No to single you out, but I just want to say that I feel many people think trades and the like are much easier than they actually are. Its easy to outline the types of moves we should make or want to make, but quite difficult to pull them off.

[BillScottCanRake]

I agree... trades are much easier to propose a trade than actually pull one off.

[Ennder]

I consider Hall a below average defensive SS whose strong tools are range and speed and weakness is in throwing and fielding the ball smoothly. I think CF will maximize his strengths and hide his weaknesses in the field. We won't know until we see him out there but I personally think his value could easily go up in CF.

[aracko]

Hardy has done absolutly nothing to lock up that Starting SS position, and Doug Melvin brought in some competition this offseason.

 

That said, Hardy gets the benefit of the doubt because everything about him says he will be a great player in this league for many years to come. He also from various postings on this site and elsewhere, has become somewhat of a clubhouse leader.

[yfinn6]

One way I look at it is would I rather have Hardy at SS and Hall in CF, or Hall at SS and Brady Clark/Gabe Gross in CF? I'd rather have Hardy at SS. I like Gross, but I like Hardy at SS more than I likeGross in CF. Just my opinion.

[UWRyan428]

Gross may not even be able to cut it in center. Personally, I'd rather put Corey Hart in center if it came to it. Thankfully, I would opine that Nix/Gwynn would be the backup plan if Hall falters. I just think Brady is the most likely to be traded. His price tag isn't as high as Mench/Jenks and he is more of a table setter which is what teams tend to make small trades for.

[sbrylski]

I'd rather have Gross in CF than Hart defensively, though both are probably below average. It'll be nice if Hall can transistion smoothly out there and finally provide some solid CF defense for us.