Sell, sell, sell?

[chansen]

We should shift our focus to being SELLERS now. We can't win against the Nationals at HOME! This season is starting to go downhill and with the Cards, Stros, and Cubs all playing well i don't see us contending for the playoffs. Our pitching is terrible right now. We need to trade JJ Hardy for some pitching and shift focus to next season.

 

JJ to the Red Sox (only if they can't land Halladay) for Bucholtz. We will actually need to give them more than JJ.

 

JJ and others to the Twins for Liriano.

[derflotr]

Buccholz is almost untouchable, it's a pipedream to think they'll land him for JJ. If feel like the only player that isn't underachieving that they could conceivably sell is Hoffman. Maybe the Rays?

[nate82]

JJ to the Red Sox (only if they can't land Halladay) for Bucholtz. We will actually need to give them more than JJ.

 

JJ and others to the Twins for Liriano.

The Red Sox are not going to be trading Buchholtz for Hardy. The Red Sox are only going to trade him for Halladay and not Hardy.

 

Liriano makes some sense since he is in a down year and that may make sense for the Brewers and the Twins. The Twins need offensive help in the infield and Hardy would be a good #5 or #6 hitter in the Twins lineup. Liriano could fill the void between Gallardo and Bush, Parra, Suppan, and Looper. I would definitely do a Liriano for Hardy trade assuming Liriano passes a physical. There still maybe something wrong with Liriano but I would like the Brewers chances next year with a rotation of Gallardo, Liriano, Bush, Parra, and Suppan. It only gets iffy after #3 and the #4 pitcher and there will be less pressure on Parra next year and hopefully he can rebound after this year and pitch like he did in the first half of '08.

 

Hart could also be traded for some pitching but that is a little bit more dicier than just trading Hardy right now. Please Melvin get a deal done with trading Hardy or Hart for some pitching or both for some pitching next year.

[GoldGloveSS06]

Buccholz is almost untouchable, it's a pipedream to think they'll land him for JJ. If feel like the only player that isn't underachieving that they could conceivably sell is Hoffman. Maybe the Rays?

Agreed that Buchholz is way out of our league for J.J. I think that's been covered ad nauseum in its own thread. I'd love a guy like Buchholz, Morrow, Niemann, etc that will be cheap and hopefully effective for years. Hoffman to the Rays sounds like a great fit. With Kazmir coming back around a little bit, you'd think the Rays still have to believe they are in it.

[Hate those Rodents]

Morrow and Niemann are good names to throw out and target for Hardy, as is Liriano. I'd look at Bowden from Boston too, as you are right, the time to be able to get Buchholz for Hardy has passed (probably was in this previous off-season or no later than June this season if there was a window there).

[twobrewers]

I wonder if Andrew Miller is available?

Since being drafted by Detriot he has really struggled in the major leagues. Florida just sent him down to AAA. He might be a good "buy low" candidate.

[YoungGeezy]

I like the Hardy to Boston. I hope it would be able to net Bowden. No way we could get Clay Buchholtz for JJ

[YoungGeezy]

Hopefully we can net someone for Cameron, real disappointed still that we didn't get that trade for Melky Cabrera finished. So hope we could pull off a trade like that.

[Invader3K]

You would want Melky Cabrera? Really?

[YoungGeezy]

You would want Melky Cabrera? Really?

Over Cameron...yeah, I would. He is much younger and cheaper option. Doesn't nearly as much power or is as good on defense but hits for better average and k's a lot less. Really I'll take any younger cheaper option if he will produce around the same. I don't know what other younger of's could be had for cameron and don't think he could net a good pitcher. I just remember that trade that almost happened but the Crew and Yankees couldn't agree on a pitcher to be traded along with Cabrera. (I think that was why it fell though) When it was on the table I was all for it and still would be.

[Hate those Rodents]

We might have been able to get Coke as well as Cabrera for Cameron, provided we threw them a couple million. But we were in ticked off mode after losing CC to them and watching them spend so much money that we kind of rightfully saw it as outrageous for them to insist on us throwing them some cash. Out of principle, you basically had to walk away from that trade I think. But having Coke in the BP would be nice, and maybe even trying him as a starter given how bad we've been the past couple weeks.

[The Ignitor]

I'd also take Cabrera at this point for two reasons: first, as YoungGeezy mentions, he is younger and more affordable; and second, he's a switch hitter. I like Cameron a lot, but at his age, you always need to keep your options open.

[Never Outhustled]

Over Cameron...yeah, I would. He is much younger and cheaper option. Doesn't nearly as much power or is as good on defense but hits for better average and k's a lot less. Really I'll take any younger cheaper option if he will produce around the same.

To date, Cabrera has only been worth 1 win this year, Cameron has been worth 2.5, these guys don't compare. The Yankees should have given us a real offer for Cameron. We're disappointing enough, I'd hate to be 1 1/2 wins worse right now.

[fondybrewfan]

Cabrera can't hold Cam's jock strap either offensively or defensively. I don't care if he is cheaper and younger. If we could afford to pay for the better player in Cameron I just assume we do that instead of settling for the cheap option.

 

Most people devalue Cam because he strikes out so much, but I bet there are a ton of GMs out there that would love to have him on the roster. He is a really solid player. I will not be upset at all if he is back again next year and I hope he isn't sold off this year. If we are going to sell, I would much rather it by JJ and or Hart because I think they are much more replaceable than Cam.

[kramnoj]

We might have been able to get Coke as well as Cabrera for Cameron, provided we threw them a couple million.

 

I don't believe that was a real possibility. The Yankees were asking for the Brewers to pay some of Cam's salary to get Melky. Then it was rumored that they would pay all of Cam's salary if the Brewers took Igawa. Besides, what would the Brewers have done with that money? It wasn't enough money to go get a better pitcher. Lopper and Hoffman were a good return for the money spent this offseason.

[dlk9s]

In the words of Randolph & Mortimer Duke... "SELL!! SELL!!! SELL!!!"

 

1) Kendall (Salome/Corporan can step in)

2) Counsell (infield is crowded anyway - Iribarren/Heether can fill in)

Sell them for what in return?

[Invader3K]

Cabrera can't hold Cam's jock strap either offensively or defensively. I don't care if he is cheaper and younger. If we could afford to pay for the better player in Cameron I just assume we do that instead of settling for the cheap option.

 

Exactly, thank you.

 

We don't get bonus points for lower payroll with inferior players, or something.

[Roderick]

We don't get bonus points for lower payroll with inferior players, or something.

I'm not chiming in on the Cameron vs Melky debate - but just this statement.

 

If we have a lower payroll one year, we may not get bonus points, but that money does stay with the Brewers in their equity / retained earnings / cash reserves (whatever you like to call it). It isn't like that money is lost, and could be spent in some future year and allow the team to spend more than their revenues if needed. It isn't like MA is an owner that is keeping all the surplus and wouldn't spend that money if it is needed to put the team into the playoffs.

[naivin]

You would want Melky Cabrera? Really?

To take the place of FA to be Mike Cameron, who is still due nearly $4M this season, yes. If the Yankees would accept that deal, you do it in a second. As it stands today, the Brewers CF next year is Jody Gerrut. I love Mike Cameron, but I am not crazy about the idea of paying him another $10M again next year. Too many other places that money needs to be spent.

[kramnoj]

Too many other places that money needs to be spent.

 

Where would you like to see money spent, and at how many positions? And is there any talent worth chasing at those positions? If we only look at FA, there isn't anyone at C that is intriguing, and I doubt that the Brewers are going to be in on the best pitchers. Given what's out there, I think I would rather bring back Cameron.

[dhoffman19]

Over Cameron...yeah, I would. He is much younger and cheaper option.

Melky wouldn't have been any cheaper since the Yankees wanted the Brewers to pay a bunch of Cameron's salary. Cameron is gone after this year anyway so Melvin can spend that money however he wants.

[naivin]

Too many other places that money needs to be spent.

 

Where would you like to see money spent, and at how many positions? And is there any talent worth chasing at those positions? If we only look at FA, there isn't anyone at C that is intriguing, and I doubt that the Brewers are going to be in on the best pitchers. Given what's out there, I think I would rather bring back Cameron.

Well, they will have roughly $40M tied up in Hall, Suppan, Braun and Fielder...that's likely to be about 50% of the payroll. Where should the money be spent? Pitching. if they aren't in on some of the best pitchers, then we can look forward to another .500 or sub-.500 season. Bottom line is they are going to have to come up with about $20-30 million to put towards pitching. I don't see anyway they can do that if they are paying Cameron $10M.

 

Trading Hardy could help, but best case, that would likely leave about $10-15M for C, 2B, 3B, SS, RF, bench and the remainder of the pitching staff, including a closer. Can't be done if they have any designs on competing next year.

 

This is a division that features SP named Carpenter, Lohse, Lilly, Dempster, Zambrano, Oswalt...With the possible exception of the Pirates, I am guessing the Brewers have the least amount of money invested in SP, and that includes the $12-13M they are paying their worst SP in Suppan. Last year they were able to compete because they had a guy or two on that list of names. This year the might have one in Gallardo. If they can't get their SP on par with the Cubs and Cards, they have no shot, so they better be in on the best pitchers via trade or FA, or you can have as many Mike Camerons as you want and its not going to matter.

 

Yet again though, the problem here is not Mike Cameron, it is the $20M+ they are going to be paying Suppan and Hall.

[kramnoj]

Here is the list of FA SP

 

Brandon Backe HOU

Miguel Batista SEA

Josh Beckett * BOS

Erik Bedard SEA

Daniel Cabrera WAS

Bartolo Colon CWS

Jose Contreras CWS

Doug Davis ARZ

Justin Duchscherer OAK

Adam Eaton BAL

Kelvim Escobar LAA

Jon Garland * ARZ

Tom Glavine ATL

Mike Hampton HOU

Rich Harden CHC

Tim Hudson * ATL

Randy Johnson SF

John Lackey LAA

Cliff Lee * CLE

Braden Looper * MIL

Jason Marquis CHC

Kevin Millwood * TEX

Brett Myers PHI

Vicente Padilla * TEX

Carl Pavano CLE

Brad Penny BOS

Odalis Perez WAS

Andy Pettitte NYY

Joel Pineiro STL

Sidney Ponson KC

Jason Schmidt LAD

John Smoltz BOS

Jarrod Washburn SEA

Brandon Webb * ARZ

Todd Wellemeyer STL

 

* club option

 

I think that Cameron is better at his job than most of these pitchers are. And I am guessing that the better pitchers either won't sign here, or will be signed by other clubs.

 

We'll have to see how the offseason goes. The Brewers could get lucky in that the Yankees may not be in the market for a pitcher (or only one). The Red Sox may not be in the market for one. If the buyers aren't out there from the big markets, and if the other markets are suffering from the economy, the Brewers may benefit. It will hopefully be an interesting and productive offseason for the Crew.

[naivin]

I think that Cameron is better at his job than most of these pitchers are.

That's all fine and good, but many of those guys are also better at their jobs than the Brewers current pitchers. That's the point. Cameron's value as a CF is not what is at issue. The Brewers terrible pitching staff is. There is only so much money to go around and it is gonna be a neck of a lot easier and chaeper to find a CF than it is to find 5 guys who give you a chance to win every day.

[kramnoj]

That's all fine and good, but many of those guys are also better at their jobs than the Brewers current pitchers.

 

If you had a choice to spend $10M on Cameron or a SP that would be better than a AAA pitcher, but would be less valuable than Cameron, would you then choose to spend that money on the pitcher? The idea behind Wins Above Replacement is that all Runs are equal.

 

There is only so much money to go around and it is gonna be a neck of a lot easier and chaeper to find a CF than it is to find 5 guys who give you a chance to win every day.

 

Having a good CF in the lineup can also give you a chance to win every day. Melky was worth less than a win combined in 2007 and 2008. He's having a good year this year, but that only means he's going to be more expensive next year.