What is wrong with broadcaster/journalists of sports?

[yogallardo43]

If this is in the wrong forum, or whatever, then please move it.

 

I just completed the Harold Reynolds blog post on why he think OPS is a flawed statistic. I, being just as confused as I am sure many of you were, decided that this would be a great time to discuss how bad the baseball media has gotten.

 

I am currently studying to become a broadcaster at UWM. I am in my final year, and I am completely dumbfounded at some of the stuff I see on a daily basis.

 

I have been a Brewers fan for my entire life, but like to look at the team objectively. I hear more said in the national media about Craig Counsell and Jason Kendall than I ever do about the key parts of this team. So many different times I have heard references about Counsell/Kendall being professional hitters, and someone that just knows what they are doing out there. Now I am not questioning their understanding of the game, but are they really a bigger part of this team than say a Mike Cameron? No, of course not. The fact of the matter is that for some reason people like Craig/Jason will receive more credit than they are probably due. What does the term "professional hitter" mean anyway? Aren't all of these guys professional?

 

This was brought to the forefront today while watching the Brewers game on FOX. We got the pleasure of Mark Grace to breakdown our game today. What we all knew was coming came in the second inning while Counsell was batting. Grace began with the comment, "now this guy (Counsell) is just a winner. It is no coincidence that he has two World Series rings and made it to the playoffs last year with the Brewers." Now, I always find this argument funny because it can so easily translate into other sports. Was Robert Horry the best NBA player in the 90's? Of course not, but he did win seven rings. The fact of the matter is that most likely, it is a coincidence that Craig has won two rings. It has had much more to do with the other players on the team than a backup middle infielder. Grace, however, was not done. He continued "his number are really never that good on paper, but he does things that don't show up in the boxscore." The funny thing about this statement, is that the broadcaster never explains what those things are. He just leaves it at that.

 

I guess it just gets confusing at times when players who are average are given way more credit that they deserve. In Kendall's case, he could be the worst everyday player in baseball. Bill Schroeder always is so quick to point out his defense, but it is really that good. Does it make up for a .270 slugging %, or a .590 OPS. Does anybody else get this frustrated? It just seems like ignorance to me.

[yogallardo43]

You say that players like Counsell, who does that include? Another player that I would say gets just as much respect as Counsell is Willie Bloomquist. Bloomquist, althought having better stats over his career that Counsell isn't labeled a winner because he hasn't played on winning teams. Don't get me wrong, I don't like Bloomquist more than Counsell, but I just think that the term winner has little to do with what Counsell has contributed to the teams he has been on.

 

Secondly, I want to emphasize that I realize that Fielder/Braun do get credit, I just get frustrated when I hear about how bad of shape the Brewers would be in if we didn't have players like Counsell/Kendall. Counsell has played well thus far this year, but if he reverts back to his norms, he is of below replacement player value to the Brewers. He has had a negative VORP the last three seasons. Kendall has been a black hole in the 8 hole this season. I really think it is time we make a move for a new catcher. Your argument that pitchers like pitching to him seems flawed seeing how badly the starters have fared this season.

[lukevan]

Counsell is a winner like it or not, he has proven throughout his career that he does the little things that help teams win.

A guy like Jack Wilson does all those same "little things" but has never had a winning seasons. What a loser. He just does not know how to win.

We as humans like sports to be like a good story; logical conclusion to conflict. However, sports are not logical, they are games, that are widely popular and people will listen when someone tells them that there's a moral reason why someone is successful. It couldn't just be because that person was gifted with talent; they must have earned it somehow through some more powerful ethos.

Maybe Mark Grace can put together a team of 9 Craig Counsell's and win the World Series. Would anyone in their right mind think that could be successful? No. But we buy that kind of tripe anyway. Mark Grace is not a real broadcaster; he's a former ballplayer that someone at one point thought spoke well so they gave him a microphone and a pedestal.

[kramnoj]

Counsell has played well thus far this year, but if he reverts back to his norms, he is of below replacement player value to the Brewers. He has had a negative VORP the last three seasons.

 

VORP doesn't include defense. Taking defense into account, which is Counsell's biggest asset, Counsell's lowest value has been .8 WAR.

 

Broadcasters have 3 hours or so to talk about a game. They have a lot of time to fill, and it's easier to let platitudes fly rather than provide dense sabermetric stats.

 

As far as Reynolds, he's not supposed to provide smart analysis, he's supposed to talk like a ballplayer, and that's what he does. Networks provide the talent that they think their audience wants. If there was enough demand for a "smart" broadcast team, networks would offer it, but there's not.

[pete]

First let me say one thing: you refer to things you hear as things you see.

 

 

 

I happen to thing the print journalism that covers the Brewers is quite good although that is a minority view, at least around here. The announcing is also pretty good. In my opinion the radio coverage is awful, but I can't remember anyone talking about it. Some of the things I hear on the radio are mind numbing. A couple days ago Mitch Nellis was talking what a worthless pitcher Parra is, how he should be traded for whatever and how he lacked ability.

 

 

 

The phrase "professional hitter" is an idiom. Are you really questioning its usage because everyone on the team is paid? The elements of what goes into being a professional hitter would probably make a good thread. Noting that skill also doesn't elevate them to a different status than other players. I hear frequent praise for Cameron, usually as a defender but also as a hitter. The cumulative value of different players is different. It may not be easy to measure, but it exists nonetheless.

 

 

 

I don't remember the exact phrase that Grace used, but he didn't argue that Counsell was valuable because he had two WS rings. Your argument that Horry won championship rings but his value couldn't be measured on rings doesn't contradict what Grace said. Maybe you don't like Counsell but he is an excellent player who contributes in many ways. You say that "broadcaster never explains." I can't speak to the broadcast as I don't remember what you are talking about, but other broadcasters talk about the various things that Counsell does all the time.

 

 

 

If you don't think Kendall is an excellent defensive catcher, I suggest going forward with an open mind to the idea you may not understand the elements that are involved in the catching position. There are many elements to that job, and I think he is great at them. Do you think he is poor at fielding grounders, blocking the plate, receiving throws or framing pitches? That's just a start to the list.

 

 

 

Noting his slugging percentage makes me wonder if you play fantasy baseball. Its hard to imagine a team where slugging percentage is less meaningful than the Brewers. He's been hitting about .300 for a while now and doing it hitting in front of the pitcher. Braun would get on base less with a lower slugging percentage if he hit in the 8 hole.

[RightFieldCoder]

So if Counsell is what causes WS rings and Grace only won a ring playing on Counsell's team, what does that say about Grace's ability as a ballplayer?

[kramnoj]

There's this internet thing that if you are going to point out another's mistakes, the chances of making a mistake in your own post increases.

 

AKA feels the need to correct someone else, and then in the first sentence writes: "I happen to thing the print journalism that covers the Brewers is quite good although that is a minority view, at least around here."

 

"Some of the things I hear on the radio are mind numbing. A couple days ago Mitch Nellis was talking what a worthless pitcher Parra is, how he should be traded for whatever and how he lacked ability.

 

Nellis has said he's the voice of the fan. He's not there to say smart things. That's Homer's job. Nellis is playing the role of the emotional fan who reacts with emotion, not logic.

[JJHardy7]

Counsell gets a lot of love because of his fame in the playoffs with prior teams. Timing is everything. I also think that it's human nature to root for an underdog and IMO that's what Counsell is.

 

Was Robert Horry the best NBA player in the 90's? Of course not, but he did win seven rings.

 

Not everyone in the media though misses things though. Colin Cowherd would put Horry in his basketball HOF. I'm not saying that everyone feels that way, but thats his opinion and it does make some sense I guess. It's not like Horry was sitting on his hands in the playoffs. He was one of the best late game shooters of all time. Again, timing is everything.

[Ennder]

Most of the pitchers the last 2 years have stated how much Kendall has helped them in their progress.

 

Of course none of our pitchers have actually improved under Kendall and in fact most of them are worse than their career averages over his stint as a Brewer. I have no doubt that he is a good defensive catcher and it helps the team but I just don't really buy that the catcher is helping their progress since they aren't actually progressing.

[pete]

Nellis has said he's the voice of the fan. He's not there to say smart things. That's Homer's job. Nellis is playing the role of the emotional fan who reacts with emotion, not logic.

 

You're wrong. He was voicing his own opinion. He says utterly idiotic things all the time. I thought he was some kid and was shocked to see him on TWC 32 and see that he has gray hair. And Homer's smart things are a farce. Do you think he says smart things? I'd say that show was an embarrassment to the station but his show isn't much different than the rest.

 

I didn't say what I did out of a need. Congratulations on finding a typo.

[kramnoj]

You're wrong.

 

He has actually said that. Have you listened to every second of every show?

 

He says utterly idiotic things all the time.

 

Yes, because fans say idiotic things all the times, and he is speaking to them. People won't listen to a radio show that continually tells them how wrong they are.

 

And Homer's smart things are a farce.

 

How are they a farce? Yes, Homer says smart things, he also says stupid things. It's a show that's on for 20 or so hours a week, plus his other appearances. Not everything he says is smart, but he does advocate smart baseball.

[Invader3K]

If you want to hear the voice of the typical fan that seems to permeate around the greater Milwaukee area, listen to Sparky on WSSP.

[yogallardo43]

The reason that I think that I started this post was because I was so frustrated on what some broadcasters do say. People would don't look at baseball as closely as many of the members on this board are lead into the wrong direction. Obviously players like Braun and Fielder are going to get their praise, but the frustrating thing is when players who I personally feel could be easily replaced are praised on a frequent basis. The "casual fans" that listen to the people talk then try to explain to me how I am wrong for what I think. Just last week I was at the Brewers game against the White Sox. I sat next to a husband/wife that I have seen many times at the stadium. This is how the conversation went... Keep in mind this was the Sat game and we were already down 6-0 in the 3rd...

 

Her: Our offense has been really struggling lately.

Me: Yeah Weeks going down for the year hasn't helped.

Her: Are you kidding me, we have Counsell. Weeks struck out way too much.

Me: Yeah, he has played alright this season.

Her: Alright, he is one of the best infielders in baseball.

 

This is where I just ended the conversation. I realize that there is no sense in getting into an argument involving Craig Counsell because the "casual fan" has had it pounded into their head that he is an amazing player. I find it quite comical how quick fans are to turn on players and easily that can be told that a player is good. One person in the media began to talk of how Manny Parra is a headcase (I think it was Sparky on WSSP) and if Parra now comes up into a conversation, that is one way that he can described.

 

Lastly, I was using Mike Cameron as an example that he should probably get more credit than he does based on the criteria that a person like Grace values. He older, he been around the league on many different teams, and he plays great defense. I personally don't care how many teams that a Brewer has played on, just that he can play. Oh wait, I forgot, Cameron is just not a winner (sorry, I don't know where the blue ink button is).

[kramnoj]

I realize that there is no sense in getting into an argument involving Craig Counsell because the "casual fan" has had it pounded into their head that he is an amazing player.

 

One manifestation of this is that the backlash against the over the top praise leads some to then underrate that player. Counsell isn't below replacement level, and never has been.

[owbc]

Craig Counsell maximizes his ability. He can barely hit home runs, his arm is mediocre, and he doesn't appear to have much natural skill. It is almost unthinkable that a guy with his skill set has a 13-year major league career. He is the extreme example of someone who does almost everything right outside of the triple crown statistics. He has the best eye at the plate that I have ever seen--pitchers try to get him to swing and he still manages to draw walks. He never gives away at bats. He is immune to big pressure situations.

 

Of course he is nowhere near one of the best infielders in baseball, but this is what amazes Mark Grace--a guy who should have no business being in the majors much less the minor leagues is putting together a very accomplished major league career. It is most amazing to the actual players, not the statheads. Grace's comments (such as him being a winner) are exaggerations of course, but Consell's numerous postseason accomplishments are not a coincidence.

[pebadger]

"Nellis has said he's the voice of the fan. He's not there to say smart things. That's Homer's job."

 

This is pair of sentences that should strike fear into the heart of a radio producer.

[TooLiveBrew]

If you don't think Kendall is an excellent defensive catcher, I suggest going forward with an open mind to the idea you may not understand the elements that are involved in the catching position. There are many elements to that job, and I think he is great at them. Do you think he is poor at fielding grounders, blocking the plate, receiving throws or framing pitches? That's just a start to the list.

 

I think if you want to point the finger at people for needing to keep an open mind, you should do the same about offense. Kendall is a major offensive weakness for the Brewers, and it is entirely fair to question whether his net worth is helping or hurting the team. I think his defensive skills beyond his throwing arm are excellent, but throwing arm for a C is like range for a SS. You can't have an average or below-avg. throwing arm in MLB as a catcher and still be "excellent defensive[ly]". It is too important a tool for the position.

 

 

Noting his slugging percentage makes me wonder if you play fantasy baseball. Its hard to imagine a team where slugging percentage is less meaningful than the Brewers. He's been hitting about .300 for a while now and doing it hitting in front of the pitcher. Braun would get on base less with a lower slugging percentage if he hit in the 8 hole.

 

Kendall's SLG is so bad that this argument holds no water, aside from the fact that I disagree with the notion that a team should ever say, 'Ok, we don't need to upgrade a weak spot since we have other strengths.' This approach belittles those that have the very valid concern that over the course of a season, Kendall would struggle to hit his way out of a wet paper bag. Noting his SLG% makes me realize that yogallardo43 watches the Brewers a lot, and is concerned that Kendall is killing this team at his lineup slot.

[kramnoj]

This is pair of sentences that should strike fear into the heart of a radio producer.

 

I don't know which pair of sentences you are referring to, but I would hope that any radio producer knows this. It maybe should strike fear into anyone who wants to get into radio and doesn't realize it. The producer is there to make a good show, even if that means that they play the foil to the host.

[crewcrazy]

Part of me thinks that broadcasters and writers that say these things about the scrappy players do so because they just like those players as people, and since they're not superstars, they'll rarely blow off the media when things aren't going well. It's really no secret that journalists love the guys who give them access and despise the guys who are condescending or disrespectful to the media. It took Jim Rice forever to get into the Hall of Fame because Boston writers hated the guy and spread bad stories about him for years after he was gone. I'd be willing to bet part of the reason why guys like Haudricourt were so hard on Yost (aside from some questionable decisions) was Yost's act in post-game press conferences. Counsell and Kendall are great guys by almost all accounts, so it's really no surprise that the people covering them are reluctant to really admit they're not very good players.

[pebadger]

I meant Homer being the smart one.

[dlk9s]

Nellis has said he's the voice of the fan. He's not there to say smart things. That's Homer's job. Nellis is playing the role of the emotional fan who reacts with emotion, not logic.

 

You're wrong. He was voicing his own opinion. He says utterly idiotic things all the time. I thought he was some kid and was shocked to see him on TWC 32 and see that he has gray hair.

Mitch is 33, give or take a few months. I went to high school with him.

[yogallardo43]

I actually had an internship with a local television station and I understand exactly what you are saying on players who are open to an interview. Counsell never turned down an interview. I think the reason Prince seems so short with the media is, honestly, he is not that well spoken.

[SeriesFinale]

This article from New York magazine a few weeks back upon the hiring of Jon Gruden to replace Tony Kornheiser which gladly notes how "the geeks" are starting to take over the dominion of the cliche-spouting ex-jocks seems to fit here.

[logan82]

I like this part best.

 

Think about it this way: When the Internet let fans create their own content, they didn't fill their blogs with the substanceless pronouncements ("Brett Favre just knows how to win games") and profile fluff ("Today, one lucky children's leukemia ward got a Michael Strahan-size surprise") that you can see on TV. They started discussing teams and games in detail, writing thousands of words about minor roster moves and strategic decisions. Networks have finally noticed.

[JJHardy7]

One manifestation of this is that the backlash against the over the top praise leads some to then underrate that player. Counsell isn't below replacement level, and never has been.

 

Agreed. There were/have been some on this board that were upset when we signed him two years ago...and brought him back this year. Counsell isn't a bad player. He's a pretty darn good bench player and to be fair is having a pretty good year for any infielder in baseball. I still think he is going to wear down since this really isn't his best role.