How would you handle the lineup?

[logan82]

Macha has been doing a pretty good job handling the pitching staff so far. However, I think he has done a pretty poor job handling the batting lineups and hitters. I used to say that moving guys up and down the lineup based on hot/cold streaks didn't bother me. I should have been clear I meant similar hitters, not guys like Kendall. I am changing my mind again, I don't like guys moved more than a spot in the oreder based on being hot/cold. The problem is that by the time you realize a guy is hot, he is starting to cool off and the opposite is true. For example, JJ has been hot the last few games yet still stuck in the bottom of the lineup. I don't have a problem with flipping Cameron and Hart in the 5/6 holes based on who is hot for example.

 

Ignoring the fact that I like the pitcher batting 8th.

LHP

Hart RF

Hardy SS

Braun LF

Fielder 1B

Cameron CF

Hall 2B

Gamel 3B

Kendall C

Pitcher

 

RHP

Cameron CF

Gamel 3B

Braun LF

Fielder 1B

Hardy SS

McGehee 2B

Hart RF

Kendall C

Pitcher

 

Counsell gets 3 starts a week against RHP. One for JJ at SS and 2 at 2B for McGehee.

 

Counsell lineup

Counsell 2B/SS

Hardy SS/McGehee 2B

Braun LF

Fielder 1B

Cameron CF

Gamel 3B

Hart RF

Kendall C

Pitcher

 

McGehee starts at 2B against RHP when Counsell doesn't. Starts one game a week at 3B agaist LHP. One game a month at 1B against LHP.

Gerut starts one game a week against RHP in CF and one every other week in RF.

Catalanotto starts one game a month against RHP in LF and one game every other week in RF.

Rivera does his usual pairing with Bush(although I would prefer he get the last game in every series.)

[burnzy24]

Why make Hall the first option at second versus lhp? I think McGehee deserves to be in the lineup almost every day with Cousell playing 2b occasionally. I personally would only have Hall as a pinch hitter / late inning defensive replacement for Gamel with maybe an occassional start vs lhp. Gamel deserves a shot to play every day as well for a least a few series in a row. Cameron would to me seem to be out of place as a leadoff hitter, just because he has speed doesn't mean he should lead off. Would much have Counsell or McGehee lead off as they seem to get on base better than Cameron, especially since he has been struggling lately.

[logan82]

Why make Hall the first option at second versus lhp? I think McGehee deserves to be in the lineup almost every day with Cousell playing 2b occasionally

 

Hall hits LHP. Has for years. There is little to suggest he won't hit LHP going forward. There is little to suggest that McGeheee can keep hitting like he has. I am not fond of Hall, but I think not starting him against LHP somewhere would be a huge mistake. For reference McGehee hit .291/.360/.450/.810 vs LHP through the minors. Hall is .292/.374/.536/.910 from 2006-2008 vs LHP. In my opinion, Macha and Svuaem whould cut their losses and admit Hall just can't hit RHP instead of trying to fix him.

 

Cameron would to me seem to be out of place as a leadoff hitter

 

Cameron has smaller LHP/RHP splits than most of our other regulars. Against RHP, he is probably the best choice unless Gerut or Counsell are in the lineup. As you see I have Counsell leading off when he is in the lineup.

[topper09er]

Why does Gamel bat 2nd the in non-counsell RHP lineup but Hardy bats 2nd if Counsell is in and Gamel then hits 6th? Whoever you think is the better 2nd hitter against RHP should always be there. I personally like Gamel hitting 2nd, it gives us a L-R-L combo in our order and it should help his development and confidence with all the FBs he will get hitting before Braun and Fielder.

Also, why would you give Prince 6 off days over the season, that is way to much for your best run producer. If you ever need to rest Prince you should have him DH a few times. Braun and Fielder should never get a day off when they are healthy, they under 26 years old, they dont need the rest.

I also dont like Hart 1 or 2, yes he has speed and is hot now, but his horrible decline in OBP over the past few years is too much to overlook, Braun will have too many ABs with no one on.

[Ennder]

We don't have an ideal leadoff hitter so nobody is going to really fit that mold, Hart's OBP is about as good as anyone elses so far this year. I also realize we won't do anything weird with the lineup so I won't suggest messing with Braun/Fielder.

 

Hart/Counsell

Hardy/Hart/McGehee

Fielder

Braun

Cameron/Hart/Hardy/Gamel

Cameron/Hart/Hardy/Gamel

Cameron/Hart/Hardy/McGehee

Kendall

Pitchers

 

Bit of a loose lineup but since we move players around so much that is fine. Hall can slot in just about anywhere vs LH since theoretically we should destroy LHP still even though we haven't been.

[logan82]

Why does Gamel bat 2nd the in non-counsell RHP lineup but Hardy bats 2nd if Counsell is in and Gamel then hits 6th?

 

Splits up the lefties. Splitting up lefties is more important than many other lineup considerations. I would prefer Gamel higher but Counsell batting leadoff with Fielder locked into the 4 hole trumps Gamel #2.

 

I also dont like Hart 1 or 2, yes he has speed and is hot now, but his horrible decline in OBP over the past few years is too much to overlook

 

Hart leads off against LHP. Not quite as pronounced as Hall, but he hits LHP better than RHP.

 

Braun and Fielder should never get a day off when they are healthy, they under 26 years old, they dont need the rest.

 

Braun hasn't been completely healthy all year. A day off now and then wouldn't hurt. Sitting Fielder once a month vs a LHP wouldn't hurt either. He is our worst hitter, besides Kendall, vs LHP.

 

I won't suggest messing with Braun/Fielder

 

Did you purposely flip them in your lineup?http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Ennder]

Did you purposely flip them in your lineup?image

 

Nope, I meant Braun or Fielder by that. I wouldn't bat them back to back in the first place but oh well, that is just me.

[logan82]

Ennder wrote:

Nope, I meant Braun or Fielder by that. I wouldn't bat them back to back in the first place but oh well, that is just me.

I meant that you had Fielder then Braun instead of their usual Braun then Fielder. I wouldn't bat them back to back either. I was going more for a "traditional" lineup since I don't see any manager batting Fielder or Braun #2 or the pitcher #8 like I prefer. I beleive any manager brought in will put Braun/Fielder at 3/4. The rest is going to get moved around those 2 in the lineup.

[owbc]

RHP

1. Counsell

2. McGehee (3B)

3. Braun

4. Fielder

5. Hart

6. Cameron

7. Hardy

8. Kendall

9. Pitcher

 

LHP:

1. McGehee (2B)

2. Hardy

3. Braun

4. Fielder

5. Hart

6. Cameron

7. Hall

8. Kendall

9. Pitcher

 

-I hate the Yost/LaRussa lineup shuffle. Unfortunately, Hardy ends up getting shuffled around in this scenario.

-The other problem with this lineup is that the three streaky players (Hart, Cameron, Hardy) all bat consecutively

-Gamel should go back to AAA on Monday (and he should have been told that all along).

-If we aren't going to use Hart's speed, he should bat 5th or lower due to his low OBP

[1992casey]

This topic has been added to the Designated Threads List.

 

 

Ignoring the fact that I like the pitcher batting 8th.

 

I usually ignore the fact that I'd like the 3rd spot manned by the fifth best hitter. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

 

If we aren't going to use Hart's speed, he should bat 5th or lower due to his low OBP.

 

I'd just as soon not use it if Corey's in the top part of the order. However, if he's batting anywhere near Kendall, I'd be fine with him being more aggressive on the base paths.

[JoeHova]

Vs. LHP:

 

Cameron

Braun

Hardy

Fielder

Hart

Hall

McGehee

catcher

pitcher

 

 

Vs. RHP

 

Gerut RF/CF

Fielder

Gamel

Braun

Cameron/Hart

Hardy

Counsell

catcher

pitcher

[logan82]

1992casey wrote:

Ignoring the fact that I like the pitcher batting 8th.

 

I usually ignore the fact that I'd like the 3rd spot manned by the fifth best hitter. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

I probably should have said "ignoring lineup optimization."

[brewers02]

vs LHP:

 

(2B) McGehee (Yes Hall is decent against LHP but I just think it is important to get McGehee more AB's)

(1B) Fielder (moving him up to get him more AB's on average per game)

(LF) Braun (yes Fielder doesn't have that great of speed, but he has the better OBP because he is a walk machine. Once the defence reacts to cover Fielder on first holes open up in the defense that Braun can better exploit with his better batting average)

(CF) Hart (Cameron is too old, too overpaid and too slumpy...let's prepare for the future)

(3B) Gamel (he hit LHP in the minors...he just needs a chance and it would help him to hit everyday)

© Rivera (spelled 1-2 times a week by Angel Salome...I'm over Kendall)

(RF) Heether (yes this would be a conversion but I think it would be worth the effort. Wouldn't mind seeing Katin or Bourgeois getting some at bats here as well).

Pitcher (the 2-3% more AB associated with the 8 spot get canceled out somewhat by batting substitutions and it doesn't waste the RBI potential of your leadoff guy)

(SS) Escobar (How long do we have to wait for JJ to snap out of it? JJ can get the occasional AB to see if he makes a recovery)

 

vs RHP:

 

Same deal except Hart and Gamel trade spots. No big changes because I'm playing Fielder and Gamel anyways and Counsel was among the players I sent packing to make room for all the farm players I promoted http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif . Plus there are just so many more RH pitchers then LW picthers I'm not a huge fan of lefty/righty platoons.

[bando1234]

Im trying to think a bit out of the box.

 

2B Hernan I--- He has it pretty much everywhere he has been, Its time to see if he can make it or if he is going to be a quad A guy. Not a great baserunner but better than some of our options.

 

3B McGhee.----I think ge could be a Lyle Overbay type hitter(Lyle of the brewers past). I think he will be able to hit .290 with gap power.

 

1B Fielder

 

LF Braun

 

RF Hart

 

CF Cameron

 

SS Hardy-- To me, Hardy,Hart & Cameron are interchangable depending on the hot hand.

 

C Kendall

 

P Pitcher

[Ennder]

(CF) Hart (Cameron is too old, too overpaid and too slumpy...let's prepare for the future)

 

Cameron was underpaid last year statistically and has been so far this year and Hart is just as slump prone as Cameron, I don't really understand this one.

 

(SS) Escobar (How long do we have to wait for JJ to snap out of it? JJ can get the occasional AB to see if he makes a recovery)

 

There is no way this will or should happen, Hardy has proven himself at the major league level and you have to let him work his way out of it even if you end up trading him afterwords. This would be one of the worst moves I've seen the Brewers make if they were to do it.

[Quietlobster]

Braun and Fielder should never get a day off when they are healthy, they under 26 years old, they dont need the rest.

 

Braun hasn't been completely healthy all year. A day off now and then wouldn't hurt. Sitting Fielder once a month vs a LHP wouldn't hurt either. He is our worst hitter, besides Kendall, vs LHP.

I'm sorry I will have to interpolate here, Fielder has actually been hitting LHP extremely well this year small sample size or not. Granted it will probably regress a little but calling him our worst hitter against LHP besides Kendall is far from accurate.

 Split G GS PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB ROE BAbip tOPS+ sOPS+ vs RHP as LH 68 214 166 49 10 2 11 41 0 0 43 43 .295 .435 .578 1.013 96 5 1 0 4 6 1 .328 101 161 vs LHP as LH 46 90 78 24 6 0 6 26 0 1 8 19 .308 .400 .615 1.015 48 2 4 0 0 0 1 .340 99 180 

[TooLiveBrew]

Welcome, quietlobster. Excellent point -- in fact, I'd just checked the Brewers' player stats for the first time this season (for anything more than just a glance, that is). My jaw just about hit the floor when I saw Prince's numbers against LHP so far.

 

While he should be expected to regress from that amazing line, he's demonstrated in his career that he can handle LHP just fine. I can't imagine what pitchers think when they have to face him right now. He just doesn't really have a weakness in his swing.

[logan82]

You are right. He will regress against LHP. It isn't that Fielder is bad against LHP as much as it is that most of our hitters kill LHP. Fielder on the other hand hits LHP worse than he does RHP, which is expected. I am not going to put much stock in under 100 PA when we have a much larger sample. Basically what he has done this year so far, while it shouldn't be ignored, isn't very useful when trying to predict what he will do going forward. Even figuring in a good year so far, I still think he is our worst starter against LHP except Kendall and maybe McGehee(not sure exactly what to expect from him).

 

OPS vs LHP 2006-2008

Braun 1.114

Fielder .792

Hart .893

Cameron .892

Kendall .679

Hardy .963

Hall .910

[TooLiveBrew]

McGehee's BABIP has been insane so far this season. Not sure that I'd pick him over Prince against LHP at this point, but they're probably somewhat close there (in terms of talent).

[The Truth]

Counsell/McGehee

Hardy

Braun

Fielder

Cameron

Gamel

Hart

Kendall

Pitcher

 

I would start Bill Hall vs just about every lefty we face, but not at 3B very often (Gamel would be my every day starting 3B). Hall would be my supersub, seeing action at SS, 2B and CF. Hall would never face a righty though, I'd take him out vs right-handed relief pitching, unless the game is a blow-out. I would rest Cameron more than Macha does. Rivera would catch once every 5th day or so, but not necessarily always when Bush pitches.

[afeter]

I can't get this line up off my brain:

 

cameron

mcghee

braun

feilder

cruz

branyan

hardy

rivera

pitcher

 

edit: whoops, mix the lefties

[TooLiveBrew]

Just want to say that I really like Macha's use of Gamel in the leadoff spot today. Mat certainly has the kind of plate discipline you want out of a leadoff man, and he's a talented enough hitter that he's not a head-scratcher atop the lineup like, say, Kendall.

[kramnoj]

I'm having fun with b-ref today.

 

Brewers hitting 5th have an OPS of .704 and those hitting 6th are OPSing .855

 

It's like Macha is trying to play the hot hand between 5th and 6th and keeps guessing wrong. Kind of like how I choose my outfielders in fantasy baseball some days.

[logan82]

Playing the hot hand is almost without fail going to lead to playing a guy past his hot streak in a better spot of the batting order and playing a guy at the start of a hot streak in a lower spot in the batting order. If you are lucky, the hot/cold streaks will be very long. Your best bet is to ignore hot/cold streaks and play whoever you think is the best player. I don't have a problem with small movement in the batting order because of hot streaks. One or 2 spots in the batting order.

[Ennder]

I think playing the hot player is just fine as long as you are looking at how he is hitting the ball and not just how many hits he is getting. Like everything else in baseball if you are really results oriented you will miss the big picture over a small sample.