Gamel and Escobar untouchable?

[jjfanec]

Jayson Stark's new article talks about trade rumors and there is a segment on the Brewers. Here is the part about the Brewers.

 

"• What's Brewing: Clubs that have spoken to the Brewers report they've been adamant in saying they won't talk about Mat Gamel or shortstop prospect Alcides Escobar, even for front-line pitching. And after that, said an official of one club they spoke with, "there's a pretty sizable falloff" to their next wave of potentially available prospects (Lorenzo Cain, Taylor Green, Caleb Gindl). That's one reason Hardy's name has started to show up on the rumor circuit. But with so little starting pitching worth pursuing, Milwaukee is another club that might not find the kind of pitching it's hunting for."

 

Sure sounds like the Brewers will not be making a big trade. Cain, Green and Gindl are not guys who would bring a front-line pitcher back unless it is a really large package of prospects that would include Jeffress, Braddock or Anundsen. If it is true Gamel and Escobar are not available and that Hardy is likely staying put for the season I do not see a big trade happening. Green and Cain are coming off injuries or are injured. Salome and Jeffress are struggling. Lucroy is just starting to play well.

[JohnBriggs12]

The amount of front line pitching that could be available has been shrinking daily. The best bet considering the market and the guys the Brewers are willing to deal is the mid tier starting pitcher market that includes guys like Washburn. But even deals like that are on hold until more teams fall out of races.

[TheCrew07]

Are people surprised by this revelation? It's been in print continually since the Sabathia trade, it was known then that Escobar and Gamel were untouchable. I realize things can change over time but until Hardy signs an extension, Escobar isn't going anywhere, and every day that passes makes it less likely Hardy will sign... if the Brewers would even offer a deal to him knowing they have a cost controlled replacement waiting in the wings.

[dadofandrew]

Neither one of those two have ever been discussed, and given their potential, probably will be starters next year and never will be.

[JoeHova]

I'm still not totally convinced that Gamel (or Escobar, I guess) will hit enough to make himself a worthy 'untouchable'. I certainly wouldn't deal him for a rental, but I think the right player could come along to make it worthwhile to trade him (or Escobar). In my mind, the only guys who should really be considered untouchable are MVP-level players (or guys you think will develop into that kind of player). What if the Orioles went crazy and offered Brian Matusz for Gamel? Or if the Rangers got sick of Hank Blalock's sub-.300 OBP and offered Neftali Feliz? Neither of those things are likely to happen, but I don't see what good comes out of ruling out trades. Hopefully Doug is just using this talk to make it clear that he values Gamel and Alcides very highly. After 2011, the only guys left from this team will be Braun and Gallardo (and CV). If the Brewers can get a pitcher who they think will be valuable now and beyond 2011, I'd say go for it. Sometimes a chance has to be taken.

[Hate those Rodents]

Do you think Escobar on this very day has more value than Hardy? I have no point but I will stop my question there and hope for answers...

[Oldcity]

It depends on the team. Hardy probably has more value to a contending team with a need at shortstop (Boston), while Escobar is going to have more value to a rebuilding team. Teams likely to trade away pitching that the Brewers want are likely to be the rebuilding teams.

[Invader3K]

I'm thinking more and more that any move the Brewers make is going to be pretty middling this year, kind of along the lines of trading for Scott Linebrink a couple years back. There doesn't seem to be much out there, and we're not hearing any substantive rumors lately at all. The top level starter they could really use down the stretch just doesn't seem to be out there.

[brewmann04]

I agree with Invader no sense forcing a trade if there no one out there. I still be curious to what Clev would want for Lee

[dadofandrew]

Hardy is a FA after '10, while Escobar is under team control until at least after '15, and will be cheap for several years. Alcides has a ton more value right now.

[Never Outhustled]

Hardy is a FA after '10, while Escobar is under team control until at least after '15, and will be cheap for several years. Alcides has a ton more value right now.

 

How often do All-Star caliber players, in their prime, who are a year and a half from free agency, get traded for 1 minor leaguer? Never?

[dadofandrew]

Hardy will be dealt this offseason, and Escobar is untouchable. Prospects like Escobar are very rarely dealt, as every team hopes to have inexpensive, solid players like that. It's kind of hard to judge his value.

[mothershipconnection]

Untouchable, always needs to be thought of as "nobody will offer us enough". Of course you trade anybody for the right return, but it doesn't seem to be surprising news that the Brewers would say "it's very unlikely that there will be someone available who we value enough to trade these two guys. Further, those players we would take in return are very unlikely to be offered to us for Gamel or Escobar". Instead of being long-winded, you say "untouchable".

[pete]

I remember over the off-season Melvin said the equivalent of what MSC says above. It was something like "everyone is always available at the right price." I think it was in relation to a discussion of the trade of Carlos Lee and he was talking about how he wasn't thinking about trading him and an offer was made and the trade happened almost right away.

 

 

 

Another comment that suggests that attitude was about the recent Corey Hart rumors. He responded to a query of his availability with the remark he "wasn't motivated."

[Never Outhustled]

Prospects like Escobar are very rarely dealt, as every team hopes to have inexpensive, solid players like that.

Completely untrue. Contenders deal guys like him all the time. Elvis Andrus is pretty much a carbon copy of Escobar, and he was dealt in a deadline deal. Teams need inexpensive good starters, but teams with $80+ payrolls don't give up outstanding starters to hand tarting jobs to average-ish guys like Escobar

 

I'm shocked how so many continue to act like the Brewers have a bottom feeder payroll.

[Invader3K]

Well, in terms of Escobar I think they are clearly just thinking toward the near future. It seems inevitable that Hardy will hit FA and get signed by some team like the Yankees who will be willing to overpay for his services. They need Escobar to fill the inevitable hole that will develop at SS. I just don't see Melvin trading him and relying on a lesser prospect to fill that gap.

[paul253]

Why do we just assume Hardy is going to leave for free agency? The Yankees don't need him. The Mets don't need him. Boston may go after him but they're starting to show a little hesitation throwing big bucks at free agents. Hardy is not exactly having an all star caliber season right now either. I'd be willing to guess if we trade Escobar, which shows Hardy he will be the shortstop, and offer him a good, fair contract, he'd resign in Milwaukee.

[Never Outhustled]

Why do we just assume Hardy is going to leave for free agency?

I'll have to agree with Al on this one, Hardy's injury issues make him too risky to sign longterm. His back problems are particularly concerning to me, because guys don't seem to hit after their backs give out.

[kramnoj]

The Yankees don't need him.

 

The Yankees don't need him now. Jeter is having a good season, but he shouldn't be expected to be a good SS in 2011.

 

Boston may go after him but they're starting to show a little hesitation throwing big bucks at free agents.

 

If Boston doesn't go after him, it will be because they think Lowrie, or whoever, will be a better value, not because they are afraid to spend big bucks.

[paul253]

Its one thing though to let him walk. That would basically be saying we don't want him. All I was getting at is that I don't think we should automatically assume that we can't resign him if we want to.

[logan82]

Sure we can resign JJ. The cost to resign him will be to high for the value we get though.

[TooLiveBrew]

Its one thing though to let him walk. That would basically be saying we don't want him.

 

I think all it would mean is that Melvin felt he didn't get an offer that would beat the kind of compensation picks the Brewers would get for Hardy signing with another team.

[endaround]

Or that Hardy in 2011 plus Escobar for a year more during Escobar's peak when he'll be the most valuable plus picks are a better return.

[JJHardy7]

I'll have to agree with Al on this one, Hardy's injury issues make him too risky to sign longterm. His back problems are particularly concerning to me, because guys don't seem to hit after their backs give out.

 

I also agree. I think it's assumed that Hardy isn't going to sign because we haven't heard all that much about it. I know the Brewers aren't a bottom feeder payroll, but they are a small market. In the perfect world, you always have stud prospects ready to replace an established player at the MLB level if that player isn't going to be kept.

[The Truth]

I absolutely wouldn't trade Escobar, period. I think he's going to a superstar, barring major injuries, and one of the best fielding SS of the next decade. Plus he brings speed at the top of the lineup that is very much needed.

 

I wouldn't trade Gamel unless some team completely overpays for him. As has been stated, any player, even Braun is tradeable if a team gives up the moon for him. (i.e. we'd take Sabathia and A-Rod for Braun if the Yankees agreed to eat their contracts. Now, obviously that isn't going to happen but is an example of how no player is truely untouchable)