Is it time for Gamel to go to AAA? ... Latest: Gamel to Stay (reply #81)

[joepepsi]

I agree with this. Mat can hit. We can look at his 80 PAs all we want, but that's no way a fair way to evaluate him. Sure he has to produce, but he needs to know his role. If he's not going to start everyday, he should be in AAA and that's not a knock on Mat. He should be the everyday 3B and let him actually get comfortable. He probably his pressing because he doesn't know his role.

He is already playing everyday. Since June 5th he's appeared in all 12 games and has started 9 of them. A young player doesn't need to start every day to get experience. Few rookies do. Hardy started only 104 games his rookie season. Prince started 151 his rookie year. The important thing is that a good young player be given regular playing time. Gamel is getting regular playing time. Over the course of this month he has become the regular 3rd baseman.

 

Like Hardy during his rookie season, they need to keep giving Gamel regular playing time, starting him most games and be patient. His bat will come around. Like most players it will probably take more than 80 plate appearances.

[Invader3K]

Thanks to joepepsi for bringing some facts into this. Some people were really complaining quite vocally that Mat Gamel was practically being abused by not getting enough starts...well, he's been starting pretty regularly lately. I don't think not starting roughly 25% of the time is really going to hamper his development, or not give him enough chances.

 

I think this weekend might be make or break for Gamel in terms of whether or not he stays up for the time being. His glove has actually been fine so far, but his bat has been fairly subpar. I know it's only 80 ABs, but he needs to show better consistency in his plate apperances. Sometimes it seems like he's patient, but other times it seems like he's just hacking at everything, hoping to make good contact.

[Thurston Fluff]

I don't think we learned any more about his readiness for the majors from his limited time in AAA than we are from his limited time in the majors. So why is his slow star tint he majors being ignored even while his hot start at AAA being used as a way to say he's the best option? He's young and certainly not a finished product on either side of the ball. We don't know if his offense is major league ready, there is nothing of substance that indicates it is, and we know his defense is not so, at best, he is half ready. I really thought the plan was to promote these guys when they earned their way to the majors. If that is the case then he should go back down and see if someone is a better all around option.

[CheezWizHed]

The logic of sending him down doesn't make sense to me. The argument I'm hearing is that he should go down to work some things out, then come back later in the season...right? Well he wsa alredy red-hot when they brought him up from Nashville! So you send him down, he starts hitting more and then you bring him back? Won't he have the same struggles he's having now???

 

Every player not names Ryan Braun goes through growing pains, and all you're doing by sending him down is delaying that natural process. He's looked bad at times, but he has also shown some real patience, and has delivered a few timely hits. He should be starting every day at 3B (DH doesn't give him the experience in the field he needs.)

 

It's NOT the same situation as Parra. Manny has had success at the ML level, he just needs to get out of the spotlight and work on a few things. But Gamel is as ready as he's going to be, now he needs playing time and as many ABs as he can get.

1) Unlike Parra, Gamel has not had any success at the ML level, so what makes you think he is as ready as he is going to get? If Parra had some success and still needs to go back, that is not evidence that Gamel is ready.

2) Just because he went cold the first time, doesn't mean he will the second. That would be the point of learning from past mistakes.

3) If he stays cold, would you prefer he do it at the MLB level or AAA level?

4) I don't expect him to hit like Braun, but we need more than hitting like Hall also. 3 years ago, I think we all say let him learn at the MLB level. Now we have a real chance at the playoffs and have multiple struggling pieces in the lineup. He is one that CAN go back to AAA. There is little flexiblity in our roster without DFAing someone. (Wouldn't we all love it if Hall still had an option?)

 

I seriously hope he turns it around in Detriot, but if not, I think we need another option for the moment.

[sweepscc]

We gave Rickie Weeks three years to get his swing straight. If we believe Gamel is our third baseman of the future then there's no time like the present for him to go through his initiation lumps in the majors.

[FVBrewerFan]

1) Unlike Parra, Gamel has not had any success at the ML level, so what makes you think he is as ready as he is going to get? If Parra had some success and still needs to go back, that is not evidence that Gamel is ready.

2) Just because he went cold the first time, doesn't mean he will the second. That would be the point of learning from past mistakes.

3) If he stays cold, would you prefer he do it at the MLB level or AAA level?

4) I don't expect him to hit like Braun, but we need more than hitting like Hall also. 3 years ago, I think we all say let him learn at the MLB level. Now we have a real chance at the playoffs and have multiple struggling pieces in the lineup. He is one that CAN go back to AAA. There is little flexiblity in our roster without DFAing someone. (Wouldn't we all love it if Hall still had an option?)

 

I seriously hope he turns it around in Detriot, but if not, I think we need another option for the moment.

I dismiss the notion tht he's cold. .644 OPS is not good enough, but it's better than Hall's. And guess what" It's virtually the same as Hardy. I just don't think he's that "cold" or really struggling at the plate. Some of it is Hardy-itis, he's hit the ball to the warning track in deep center three times that I recall. If a couple of those go out, his OPS is suddenly over .700. With only 80 plate appearances it won't take much to get his OPS over .750, and for a rookie I think we could all live with that.

[Invader3K]

We gave Rickie Weeks three years to get his swing straight. If we believe Gamel is our third baseman of the future then there's no time like the present for him to go through his initiation lumps in the majors.

 

One important difference was that in 2005 the Brewers weren't really contending for the playoffs. Now we are trying to make the playoffs for the second year in a row. We don't have as much room for guys to learn on the job, which is basically what Rickie had to do. I'm not saying that means Gamel should be sent down, but if he continues to not hit at an acceptable level, then I don't think the Brewers are obligated to keep him in Milwaukee.

[JJHardy7]

Thanks to joepepsi for bringing some facts into this. Some people were really complaining quite vocally that Mat Gamel was practically being abused by not getting enough starts...well, he's been starting pretty regularly lately. I don't think not starting roughly 25% of the time is really going to hamper his development, or not give him enough chances.

 

What 'facts'? He hasn't played 3B in even half the games he's played in. joepepsi isn't bringing up any fact that's relevant to this IMO. If Gamel doesn't know his role, that is probably going to make him press. If Macha says, hey Mat you're our 3B...let's roll. That changes things. I think Gamel needs to be starting 3B everyday. Starting as a DH is doing nothing to help his development at 3B. Gamel would've played twice as many innings (at least) if he was in AAA. I don't see how that's not mismanagement. Gamel's biggest question mark is his fielding and to be honest as much as I like Mat he needs to be in Nashville in order for that to be worked on. I'm not trying to attack joepepsi, but let's take Hardy in your example. He was given the SS from day one. He could barely hit .200 or so and was benched for periods IIRC. That is not the case with Mat (or at least that we know). Hardy also didn't play in less than half his games at SS and the majority at DH. Playing 40% of the games you play in at 3B is not starting everyday. Gamel has played 3B 12 games out of the 32 or so he's been in the bigs and is averaging less than 3 at-bats per game. Those are some stats related to Mat. Mat did not bat or had one at-bat in about half of the games he's been up in the bigs...that's not a lot of playing time.

[paul253]

I'd like to see Adam Heether be given a shot. My first choice would be to play Gamel every day for a month and see what happens. But if he's going to be platooned, let him get his AB's in Nashville.

[TheCrew07]

I really thought the plan was to promote these guys when they earned their way to the majors. If that is the case then he should go back down and see if someone is a better all around option.

Once again people are assuming that "ready"=production, when in fact it doesn't. As long as he's getting the defensive coaching (isolating techniques) he needs with the big club then Milwaukee is probably the best place for him because they have more coaches available to work with him. I'm not sure Money and his staff can devote the same time to Mat as the coaches in Milwaukee can.

 

Given enough time, his bat will come around, there's a learning curve here and some players move through it faster than others. Escobar will likely the be the same way when he finally comes up, he'll start slow and build into it because that's what he's done at every level since A+. If Cam, Hart, and Hardy continue their recent trends then it's quite a bit easier to let Gamel develop at the bottom of the lineup everyday, if not then they need to scratch out production where ever they can. Hall isn't the answer at 3B, so the production issue irrelevant unless the team is willing to move McGehee over and bring Iribarren up to play second, but he may not hit either... there are no gaurantees in player development, just time and patience.

 

One important difference was that in 2005 the Brewers weren't really contending for the playoffs. Now we are trying to make the playoffs for the second year in a row. We don't have as much room for guys to learn on the job, which is basically what Rickie had to do. I'm not saying that means Gamel should be sent down, but if he continues to not hit at an acceptable level, then I don't think the Brewers are obligated to keep him in Milwaukee.

Braun came up into a playoff push in 2007, I really don't think there's any difference, the player at AAA was ready to fill a hole on the MLB roster. In this case Gamel started out fast and taperred off just as quickly while Braun kept hitting and making errors at a pretty constant pace basically breaking even on the season. Each player will take a different path but the end result may favor Gamel's rookie season in the end in terms of total value. Gamel's bat will come around at some point, and his production could be absolutely critical to the stretch run, it will just require some patience. He doesn't have anything left to proove against AAA pitching so the question at least in my opinion is where can he get the most amount of defensive work in? Getting 3 to 5 chances a game in the IF isn't going to make him a better fielder, the practice repetitions are going to make or break him, so where ever he can get the most defensive practice is the place he should be (assuming regular ABs).

 

The flip side of course is that he may not hit at all, and as unlikely as I think that possibility is, it still needs to be acknowledged, because we really don't know what he's going to do. That's why I say wait until the all-star break, if it's not working out then it may be time to consider sliding McGehee over and going with Iribarren but the end result production wise might not be any better than what they would have had with Gamel. With McGehee dinged up, all of this moot, hopefully these injuries are minor and won't nag him all season. He's made the most of his opportunity so far.

[dragoon84]

Our expectations have all been shaped by Braun's meteoric offensive year in 2007.

 

I like Gamel at 3rd, and I'm willing to let him have his lumps. Let him bat low in the order, and to lay off the low outside breaking stuff.

[logan82]

If somebody else is going to produce better than Gamel, they should be starting.

[statman0007]

Doesn't Gamel need to spend more time in the minors to ensure Super Two status? If so, it is a no brainer to send him down to save millions and millions of dollars in the future. I think he's the best option at 3rd, but he's not enough of an upgrade to justify the cost.

[TheCrew07]

If somebody else is going to produce better than Gamel, they should be starting.

How do you adequately gauge production vs talent... short term, long term? The concept is way too fuzzy to make definitive statements about who's the best option, especially given Gamel's production is some what of an unknown going forward. Heether and Iribarren are options I'm sure, but there's no guarantee they will produce better than Gamel, nor do we know if McGehee will continue to produce... situations like this require patience. Yes a 1 game lead is tenous at best, but if they can ride out the storm in the short term, their patience may be rewarded in the second half. Gamel is an impact bat at this level, in that I have no doubt, there's just no way to project when we'll see some consistency out of him. It could be tomorrow, it could be 2010.

 

BCB has a post talking about DeRosa and Bedard, wins etc.. today... Gamel has the potential to be a more meaningful acquisition than any other position player the Brewers could acquire via trade. I'd rather bet on Gamel and get aggressive going after some pitching, but again that's where my focus lies.

[TooLiveBrew]

I took logan's post to mean that no one is producing more than Gamel. See his post #18:

 

Gamel is as ready as he is going to be. Let him play full time.

[CheezWizHed]

I dismiss the notion tht he's cold. .644 OPS is not good enough, but it's better than Hall's. And guess what" It's virtually the same as Hardy. I just don't think he's that "cold" or really struggling at the plate. Some of it is Hardy-itis, he's hit the ball to the warning track in deep center three times that I recall. If a couple of those go out, his OPS is suddenly over .700. With only 80 plate appearances it won't take much to get his OPS over .750, and for a rookie I think we could all live with that.

Unfortunately, I don't get to see many games, so I can't comment on if he is not lucky or whatever... Anyone know where to find LD%? And I realize we are talking about a very small sample size. But he also only has a very small sample size at AAA. Jumping from AA to MLB isn't always the best for a player.

 

The difference between JJ vs. Gamel: We know JJ has and can hit MLB pitching.

The difference between JJ, Hall vs. Gamel: JJ and Hall have no options to go anywhere else. Gamel represents our lone choice for position players to send somewhere without DFAing them.

 

The main thing that disturbs me about Gamel right now is that he is trending in the wrong direction:

	G	GS	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	TB	GDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB	ROE	BAbip	tOPS+	sOPS+
2009 Totals	29	18	80	73	4	16	4	0	2	11	1	0	6	26	.219	.288	.356	.644	26	1	1	0	0	2	1	.311	100	72
Last 7 days	6	4	20	18	2	3	0	0	0	1	1	0	2	6	.167	.250	.167	.417	3	0	0	0	0	1	0	.250	34	14
Last 14 days	12	9	40	38	3	8	2	0	1	5	1	0	2	16	.211	.250	.342	.592	13	1	0	0	0	1	0	.333	83	62
Last 28 days	24	17	72	67	3	14	3	0	1	6	1	0	4	24	.209	.264	.299	.562	20	1	1	0	0	1	1	.310	76	54
Last 365days	31	18	82	75	4	17	5	0	2	11	1	0	6	27	.227	.293	.373	.666	28	1	1	0	0	2	1	.326	106	77

Trust me when I say, I"m a huge fan of Gamel's. At one point, I thought he was going to be a better player than Braun. And I hope that after the Detroit series (or even the All-Star break) there are a lot of people telling me "I told you so". I'll happily take that. But sometimes a rookie just "working through it" isn't the best for the team, nor that player.

[ORLANDOBREWER]

He should be sent back down to Nashville for around a month to delay his arby clock...at that time if he is hot bring him up for good.

[JJHardy7]

Trust me when I say, I"m a huge fan of Gamel's. At one point, I thought he was going to be a better player than Braun. And I hope that after the Detroit series (or even the All-Star break) there are a lot of people telling me "I told you so". I'll happily take that. But sometimes a rookie just "working through it" isn't the best for the team, nor that player.

 

Look at his playing time though. It's been so off and on I don't put a lot of weight on his struggles. I posted a month ago I felt the Brewers didn't have a plan for Gamel and I stand by that. It's not like Hall is on fire or anything right now. If Hall didn't have his salary, Gamel would be at 3B everyday where he should be. I'm sure Gamel is pressing and trying too hard. Let's get him more than 3 at-bats a game and see what he can do.

[Paulus88]

If Hall didn't have his salary, Gamel would be at 3B everyday where he should be. I'm sure Gamel is pressing and trying too hard. Let's get him more than 3 at-bats a game and see what he can do.

I disagree that Hall's salary has any impact on Gamel's playing time. It's Hall's defense that plays. Until Gamel hits or fields well enough in his limtied opportunities to overcome Hall's glove he will continue to have his playing time limited.

[JJHardy7]

I disagree that Hall's salary has any impact on Gamel's playing time. It's Hall's defense that plays. Until Gamel hits or fields well enough in his limtied opportunities to overcome Hall's glove he will continue to have his playing time limited.

 

Has Gamel's defense in MLB been that bad?

[Paulus88]

No but he is not starting with a blank slate reputaiton. Fair or not he is going to have to show, over a longer period of time in limited opportunities that he is a solid fielder in order to overcome his reputation.

[JohnBriggs12]

If Hall didn't have his salary, Gamel would be at 3B everyday where he should be. I'm sure Gamel is pressing and trying too hard. Let's get him more than 3 at-bats a game and see what he can do.

I disagree that Hall's salary has any impact on Gamel's playing time. It's Hall's defense that plays. Until Gamel hits or fields well enough in his limtied opportunities to overcome Hall's glove he will continue to have his playing time limited.

Gamel has to hit well enough to overcome his own glove like Braun did in 07.. He hasn't so far. Not that his glove's been terrible or that he needs to be Braun-like on offense, but he does need to hit. If he goes down, McGehee and Counsell and to a lesser extent his likely roster replasment, Iribarren benefit, not so much Hall.

[Invader3K]

I really don't think the Brewers are as concerned about Gamel's defense at this point as some here think they are. I think it comes down to his ability to hit at the Major League level, and also the fact that they are paying Bill Hall a ton of money so they are going to give him every opportunity to bounce back. Maybe that's not right, but it's the reality.

[Thurston Fluff]

Once again people are assuming that "ready"=production, when in fact it doesn't. As long as he's getting the defensive coaching (isolating techniques) he needs with the big club then Milwaukee is probably the best place for him because they have more coaches available to work with him. I'm not sure Money and his staff can devote the same time to Mat as the coaches in Milwaukee can.

 

I was pointing there is no way to know he is ready by judging either his major league time or his limited time in AAA. We can't judge his readiness by his AAA production anymore than we can judge him not ready by his major league production. It is clear he is not ready defensively and no indication he is ready offensively. Only time will tell us that. Usually players have to show they are ready to get a call up to the majors on teams making a run at the post season.

I do not buy into the idea the major league coaches have more time to devote to getting him up to speed than the AAA coaches. It is the minors that are there specifically for that. He would get all the time he needs with the coaches. I really doubt the minor league coaches spend as much time working with every player equally. They spend a larger portion of their time with the prospects vs the 30 something minor league lifers. In the majors the coaches have to work with everybody.

[JJHardy7]

No but he is not starting with a blank slate reputaiton. Fair or not he is going to have to show, over a longer period of time in limited opportunities that he is a solid fielder in order to overcome his reputation.

 

Gamel has to hit well enough to overcome his own glove like Braun did in 07.. He hasn't so far. Not that his glove's been terrible or that he needs to be Braun-like on offense, but he does need to hit. If he goes down, McGehee and Counsell and to a lesser extent his likely roster replasment, Iribarren benefit, not so much Hall.

 

I understand it's not blank, but can we take the training wheels off? He's made huge strides on defense this year. How can he show his bat when his role is clearly not defined. It seems as if it depends on which way the wind is blowing (in non-AL road games). Braun struggled in his first 20 or so at-bats, but the Brewers didn't more or less bench him for a few games. Gamel's bat is the best option at 3B. Making him perform in limited chances is a huge waste of having him up in Milwaukee. The way Gamel has been used this year is easily the most questionable thing the Brewers have done in a long, long time. It's not like they have a guy raking at 3B. Why would you not give him a shot for even a week or so and then we can take a look at what he did or didn't do with the bat or on the field. I think it's a terrible way to deal with your top prospect. There's no doubt in my mind that at this point and time he should've been left in Nashville. That's not a knock on Mat, but it's just my opinion that if you're not going to use him right at least let him play everyday somewhere. I think Brewer fans have to take a step back and first of all determine he's not Braun. Braun had maybe the best rookie season ever with the bat. His defense is also nowhere near as bad as Braun's. There were thoughts in the in-game chat when he hit his first HR of the year that Braun and Gamel were the two future faces of the franchise...how quickly that apparently changed. If Hall was making the minimum, he wouldn't be in Milwaukee right now. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but his contract is the only reason he's on the field. I know his defense is above average, but the same could be said about a lot of 3B in the majors and in the minors.