Parra sent to Nashville; Narveson up

[MJLiverock]

Wow I just read through the threads and talk about jumping on a guy. The Crew has a point, players are not robots and no matter how many simulations or projection systems used the players are never going to fully adhere to the stats at a given moment or game. The mental aspect is huge in baseball and the constant downplaying of it by pure stats driven fans may not be arrogance but it does get condescending, especially when people have to look up third and fourth derivative stats to back up opinions which are all anyone has on here. I've learned a lot from the pure stats posters and peple like Ender have a wealth of knowledge and have taught me a lot but I can understand TheCrew's point, it may not be arrogance but condescending yes when every criticism of players like Parra, Hart, or Hardy is poo pooed as small sample, or because some projection system, or because well his BA sucks, no his OBP sucks, no his BABIP sucks, no his LD% is good so he must be fine and there is nothing to worry about.

 

One of the reasons I hated the Cubs as a kid was because their fans could never admit a player stunk and constantly overrated their guys, it seems there is some level of homerisim or Brewer tinted glasses here that brings out all sorts of defense when every anyone critisizes a few certain players. Not every player in the team is an all star and some are going to flame out and not match their projections or improve each and every year, blind faith in historical stats or projections is not 100% acurate.

 

Posters calling out Parra for sometime were met with all sorts of resistance even when they posted links to many comments from him, Yost, Melvin, Maddux, etc. about his mental state. Corey Hart was the same way, any negative post was met with, "it was just a couple weeks in September" even though it was more than that and now we see some of those same posters swing around toward wondering about Hart. Just because someone spots a problem in less than 1000AB's doesn't make it wrong. Now with Hardy the same arguments are happening, people dig for any reason, no matter how far down the chain to point out there is nothing wrong, but the reality is another 7 hitless games have went by and he is hitting .207, so something is wrong, he isn't hitting. At what point do the peripheral stats start to not matter and the primary stats like hits, runs, and wins begin to matter?

[logan82]

Wes Obermueller never had the stuff Parra has. Parra in 2016 is likely to be much more valuable than Parra 2009. I always look to the future, but not at the expense of the present. If he can help us this year, we need him on the team.

[Invader3K]

Wes Obermueller never had the stuff Parra has. Parra in 2016 is likely to be much more valuable than Parra 2009. I always look to the future, but not at the expense of the present. If he can help us this year, we need him on the team.

Well, I think it's apparent at this point that Parra being in Nashville right now is the best thing for both him and the Brewers. I wouldn't be surprised if he's not even brought back before September right now. It's clear he has to work through some issues and leaving him to get shelled started after started wasn't doing the team any good.

[nate82]

As I recall both Yost and Melvin was asked about the workload and Melvin was the one who said it was a special situation. Meaning the team circumstances were such that they fully intended to use him as much as needed to help get to the playoffs. You really can't pin this one on Yost. It was Melvin who told Yost to make the playoffs or else then gave him a young pitcher coming off an injury and very few innings/year to work with. I'm not sure what could reasonably be expected of Yost in that situation other than to not be Yost. Even then it wouldn't have changed the circumstance or outcome it just would have made people look for the real culprit.

I also question if last year's workload has any bearing on this year's production. I know a huge jump in innings is hard on the pitchers physical health but never heard anyone say it hurt their mental well being. If this was an injury issue then maybe we could blame it on last year's workload and Melvin could be blamed. It is not so we should not.

That makes no sense at all that they were going for the playoffs in the beginning of last year. I think you have the Sabathia situation and the Parra situation mixed up. Yes if Manny was used correctly last year limiting his innings pitched and his pitch count early in the year he would have had more success in the later part of the year last year which would have increased his confidence. Confidence is all mental so yes that did hurt him by the abuse he took in the early part of last year. By far Yost has been one of the worst managers in recent years and only falling behind Dusty Baker for abusing young pitchers.

 

Parra should have been treated like Kershaw has been treated this year. The Brewers needed to keep Parra's innings and pitch count down in the beginning of last season and they obviously didn't do what they said they were going to do with Manny. I believe the misshandling of Parra in the early part of the season last year had an adverse affect on Manny physically and mentally. Manny's average on his FB is below that of what it was last year and almost lower than what it was two years ago. Something is not right with Manny and I am going to bet on it being because of the abuse he took in the early part of last season.

[Thurston Fluff]

That makes no sense at all that they were going for the playoffs in the beginning of last year. I think you have the Sabathia situation and the Parra situation mixed up. Yes if Manny was used correctly last year limiting his innings pitched and his pitch count early in the year he would have had more success in the later part of the year last year which would have increased his confidence.

 

All I said was you can't blame Yost for it. Obvously his job was on the line and he was given those players to get the job done. Can't tell him he has to make the playoffs but he can't use his players like he needs to in order to do so.

I think if you want to blame someone you have to blame Melvin. He was asked about Parra's workload well before Parra melted down and Melvin's response was this is a special circumstance. To say that he should have been kept fresh at the beginning of the season so he would be productive at the end neglects the fact that had Sheets not been injured and soup melted down Parrra wouldn't have been needed so badly at the end. I don't know how you can know for sure the plan wasn't to work Parra as necessary early (after all those wins counted as much as the late ones did and there ware less options to cover those innings earlier in the season) because they knew they could/would get someone if necessary at the trade deadline. In fact that is what happened. If Sheets and Soup would have stayed productive I think you would have seen Parra's workload decrease later in the season.

 

The Brewers needed to keep Parra's innings and pitch count down in the beginning of last season and they obviously didn't do what they said they were going to do with Manny.

 

You may have said it but I don't think the Brewers ever said they planned on keeping Parra's innings down last year. In fact I remember the exact opposite when asked about his innings piling up. They has a shot at breaking a 26 year playoff drought and they pulled out all the stops to get there. One of those was risking injury to a young pitcher. That risk paid off in both making the playoffs and the young pitcher not getting injured. Not sure what his abuse last year has to do with his confidence this year other than a convenient excuse.

 

Something is not right with Manny and I am going to bet on it being because of the abuse he took in the early part of last season.

 

Unless it's an injury of some sort then I don't know why you say that. He did have a stretch this season where he pitched well. If it was simply his confidence being shaken by how the season ended I think a month of good results combined with the success he already had would have been enough to compensate. I see no reason to blame last year's usage on his mental makeup this year. If it was physical injury yes there is an argument to be made but that is not the case. If there is an excuse it is his age combined with his makeup. Even Cliff Lee got sent to the minors for poor performance before he came back and finished his cy young year. I don't see why someone like him could struggle without it being anybody's fault other than his lacking for something yet it is inconceivable that Parra wouldn't struggle simply by his lacking for something.

[giffted1]

That makes no sense at all that they were going for the playoffs in the beginning of last year. I think you have the Sabathia situation and the Parra situation mixed up.

They where going for the playoffs all year. Yost had many faults but luckily, undervalueing wins early in the season wasn't one of them.

Yes if Manny was used correctly last year limiting his innings pitched and his pitch count early in the year he would have had more success in the later part of the year last year which would have increased his confidence. Confidence is all mental so yes that did hurt him by the abuse he took in the early part of last year.

If confidence is so important to Manny's success how was he able to overcome his rough start to the season last year? I'm sure his confidence was low with an era approaching 6 early in May. Shouldn't that have snowballed on him, taking him back to rookie ball by the end of the season?

By far Yost has been one of the worst managers in recent years and only falling behind Dusty Baker for abusing young pitchers.

Don't try to put Yost in anywhere near the same category as Dusty. Parra was 25 and threw about 30 more innings in 07' than 08' (166 innings). Wood was increasing his innings by around 40 IP a year and throwing over 200 innings a year at the same age. Prior made around a 50 inning jump to over 200 innings at age 22. Yes, Manny was a couple years removed from an injury, but it's nowhere near the level of abuse Wood and Prior took.

Parra should have been treated like Kershaw has been treated this year.

Give me a break. Kershaw is 21 and Manny was 25.

[Ennder]

Now with Hardy the same arguments are happening, people dig for any reason, no matter how far down the chain to point out there is nothing wrong, but the reality is another 7 hitless games have went by and he is hitting .207, so something is wrong, he isn't hitting. At what point do the peripheral stats start to not matter and the primary stats like hits, runs, and wins begin to matter?

 

The primary stats never ever matter, they are just results and don't tell you how the player is really doing. They at best serve as a reason to dig a bit deeper into the peripherals to try to explain a problem. For example a bad BABIP could mean they are popping up a lot or that they are hitting from behind way too much etc.

 

Hardy's average is mostly a fluke right now no matter what his results are. The bigger concern is his power is absent on the year and that is showing up in his peripheral stats. That is what you have to be worried about with him.

 

Parra has walked over 5 hitters per 9 innings, that is a pretty clear indication that something is wrong and he probably should be in the minors to fix it.

 

Hall's bad start is completely supported by his peripherals.

 

Hart is a bit more of an enigma, I don't know what to think about him. Seems like he is trying to change his approach at the plate and it is only partially succeeding. He is walking more but also striking out a ton more.

 

Posters calling out Parra for sometime were met with all sorts of resistance even when they posted links to many comments from him, Yost, Melvin, Maddux, etc. about his mental state

 

These are things that get thrown around every time a young player struggles though. Do a search on mental approach mlb and you'll find 20+ pages of links to players struggling with their mental approach. These kinds of comments don't mean that Manny Parra will never be a good pitcher because he is mentally weak and wants to "roll up in a ball and cry after every hit". Those are the kinds of comments that are really bothering people.

[nate82]

Give me a break. Kershaw is 21 and Manny was 25.

Why does age matter? Manny should have been eased in no matter what his age was not thrown under the bus like he was last year. Manny was misused last year nearly all of his innings of work came in the early half of the year. So yes Manny did break down and I hardly call a 4.9 and a 4.5 for the first two months of a year bad for a first year full time starting pitcher in 2008. Manny had 3 good months last year with 1 great month and 1 horrible month which was more the cause of him being in the bullpen than anything else.

[TooLiveBrew]

As strange as it sounds, Manny really is a 'young 26'. His arm development just isn't where a healthier pitcher's would be at this age. I completely agree that he was overworked a bit last season, but I'm not sure whether or not that has had any impact on his command this season.

[Thurston Fluff]

I think the difference is age 25 a person is done growing at age 21/22 there is still some filling out going on. There is a difference between the body developing and simply needing to get stronger to be able to handle the workload. Parra needed to get stronger but he was past the development age.

I still think Cliff Lee is a better comparison than other young pitchers who were abused the year before. Just a good pitcher losing it for a while. A mental break, a little time getting his mechanics/head straightened out in a less stressful environment and hopefully he will be ready to go again. His stuff still seems good. Nobody is saying his pitches aren't good enough this year to get major league players out. They seem to be saying he isn't putting them in the right place. Location issues without injury can hardly be blamed on being used too much the year before. If anything it should have improved because he played more.